Beyond the Protein Shake: Better Post-Run Fueling

Carrie Tollefson: Welcome to the RunDot Podcast, everybody. We have our favorite registered dietitian joining the show today. She's gonna teach us about post-workout nutrition. I'm really excited for this one. Her name is Jillian Tholen, and she shares the same zip code as me from St. Paul, Minnesota. Jillian specializes in helping runners, skiers, cyclists, and other active individuals learn how to best fuel their bodies for training, performance, and life. She's a lifelong runner and she was a collegiate All-American in cross-country at Augustana and has continued to run and train since then. Hey Jillian, welcome back to the show.

Jillian Tholen: Hi Carrie, it's good to see you as always.

Carrie Tollefson: I love having you on the show. And just so people know, if you don't know me, I'm Carrie Tolfson. I'm an Olympian, a broadcaster, and your guide to the world of Ron Dot. We treat the show like any good workout. We're start our warm-up question, which is a good one. We're gonna settle into our main set conversation, which is also a good one, and then we're gonna wind things down by having Jillian answer an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff today, so let's get after it. Okay, Jillian, warm up question. Often out at the races, spectators will hold fun signs to encourage the runners as they go by. What is your favorite race course sign you've ever seen?

Jillian Tholen: This is such a hard question. I was thinking about this and it's honestly been so long since I've raced. It's just kind of lame to say, but I I haven't made any really creative signs. I think the ones that come to mind for me are the ones that say things like, I don't know, run like you have to pee your pants. Like that kind of like comes up for I mean it's relates to what I do, right?

Carrie Tollefson: Maybe you've made one then. Maybe you've made one for your husband or others. Yeah. Right.

Jillian Tholen: Or like run like you really need to you really need to make it to that next port a potty. which like aren't the most encouraging signs, I would say. but those are like the ones that come to mind for me, the ones I have to do with like porta potty stops. I don't know. I hope you have a better answer than I do.

Carrie Tollefson: huh. Yes. And they also are silly and so I don't really have that that good of an answer either, because I think a lot of times I am not so I'm so focused. Like I'm not I'm not, you know, at that stage where I was like I still like go and have fun and races. I'm still like, I gotta win. But I'm getting there. Every day I'm getting there. But I think I've seen a couple like this is a lot of work for a banana. Well, we're talking to a a dietitian here who would say, No, this is good work for a banana, but like That seems to be funny, like when you're out on an IRONMAN course or a marathon course. Yes. I also have I've seen one what that has said like, why do all the hot ones run away from me? Like all the hot guys or gals or whatever. I think that's kind of cute. But I love the inspiring ones. I love the ones that just have like believe or strong or, you know, my arms are getting heavy from holding the sign. You're rocking it type thing. So there's some good ones out there for sure. I need to kind of endure

Jillian Tholen: yeah, like I'm doing all this. Why am I doing this? Yeah, for sure. That's pretty good too. There are some good ones. I know I can't I know that people are so creative. I always have that thought when I'm out spectating and I'm like, this is so funny. Yes, in my spare time, maybe someday.

Carrie Tollefson: Well, you are creative. You and you can draw such pretty things. Like you should do more of that. Yeah, exactly. Well, let's move on to the main set because we have a big this is like a big, you know, topic. Everybody wants to know. So post workout nutrition. We're gonna get into it. Some may picture like protein shakes, some may picture full-on meals, others have like their favorite snack or a tailwind or some site sort of electrolyte drink. So as a re registered dietitian, what does the term post workout nutrition mean to you?

Jillian Tholen: In a word, recovery, right? And I think how much or how little thought we put into our post workout nutrition can I mean can help us recover better or not so well. and I suppose that's kind of globally, right? Post workout nutrition could mean just that window right after we run, after we get back from our training. It could also mean just kind of like the other 23 hours of the day. Right. And I think today what we're gonna kinda talk about is that window right afterwards, but it kind of has a twofold meaning to me. But really it's about recovery when we're talking about that post round nutrition.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. And when you think about that that real short window, what do you think? I mean, has that it you know, it's always kind of been thirty minutes, but has that changed? Has it stayed the same? What do you recommend to your to your clients?

Jillian Tholen: Mm. Well, I think we can think about it a couple different ways. there is some there has been some, we'll say like debunking that we have to get this nutrition in just like right after. And I think that when we're really thinking in those terms of do I have to eat or drink something right away, I mean the answer is not necessarily yes when we're thinking of do I have to? Is it so so important? because we do have those twenty three, twenty four or more hours. where we're always recovering. We are always recovering, right? And that's how that's why day-to-day nutrition is so important because it isn't just like the before, during, and after of our training that we need to think about. However, there is something that happens when we exercise related to insulin that really does actually matter right after we train. So what I'm talking about is something called insulin-independent uptake of glucose. And I mean that's a big mouthful, but really what that's speaking to is the fact that when we exercise, glucose can get into our muscles, into our it just like through our it can get into our muscle cells. Sorry to strip over my words, independent of insulin. And so what that means for that post-workout recovery window, when that's that is still active, is that our bodies can take up and restock glycogen from any carbohydrates we take in. much more effectively and efficiently than they can kind of those other 23 hours of the day. So I would say to someone who wants to actually optimize their recovery, really make sure that they're getting all the bang for their buck, they're ready for their next workout tomorrow to get something in within that 30 minutes. I do think it's pretty important. And that's carbs in particular. And I know we'll talk more about this, but that ideally it's something with carbohydrates in it and maybe a little bit of protein, not the other way around. and this is actually particularly important than if you're gonna do a double, right? If someone's training in the morning and then they're gonna train again in the afternoon, then this is even more important. We have to get something in, ASAP. But even if you're just training again in twenty-four hours, it's really it can be really helpful for really optimizing stocking restocking your glycogen stores.

Carrie Tollefson: What do you like think, you know, over the years, not only as an athlete yourself, and you know, your household is all everyone's athletes, like in your household. Your husband coaches, he runs, you're a runner, you do all the things. But what do you think are some of the biggest mistakes or misconceptions? And I know like you're so kind, like you don't want it people to feel bad for what they've done, but I think that there are some ways that we could just like it's almost like knowing when we don't stretch, right? Like we should stretch, post. workout. We should. And a lot of times people are busy and we just kind of like, I'll get to it later. And that's sometimes I think with nutrition too. I'll just grab it when it when I have a little break. I gotta get to this email or whatever. So what are some of the biggest mistakes or misconceptions that you've seen over the years with athletes?

Jillian Tholen: Right. Right. I think two come to mind. One is what you're speaking to where athletes don't prioritize it. They're especially morning workout. I mean, I'm gonna I'm really gonna call it the morning runners, the morning athletes, which I am one of as well, right? It's so it's so tempting to like get in the shower, to not do your core even, right? To just like start work, especially in the era of like we can just work from home, open up your computer and all of a sudden it's been an hour. in your emails or you have to get your kids to school or whatever. And you don't take the time to plan ahead for what am I gonna do for my nutrition or what can I have ready to go. You're just not thinking about it. And all of a sudden it's been two, three hours. And now we've not only missed that window for optimal glycogen. restocking, but we also are behind in our energy needs, right? We're digging ourselves into a hole for the day. And those within day energy deficits can also really impact things like hormones, stress levels, energy for the rest of the day, recovery. So not prioritizing nutrition, huge. That's a huge mistake I see people make with the post-workout, with the post-workout intake. The second thing And I think we have social media and just like our wider food culture and the messaging to thank for this is overemphasizing protein for endurance athletes in the post-workout window. Protein is important. It's helpful for recovery, for muscle protein synthesis, for repair. Yes. And it's actually not our priority right after we train. We don't want to just be downing a protein shake that has no carbohydrate with it and heading off to the next thing. We want to make sure that we get carbs in for the for the reasons we just spoke about, right? We really wanna make sure that we're optimizing our glycogen stores and giving our bodies that carbohydrate fuel that they need before we really think about too much protein. So it's too much protein right afterwards and just not prioritizing nutrition in general, post-workout, that I see as the biggest things.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Like so many people think, I'll just grab a chicken breast. I mean they're you that the chicken breast is awesome. It's easy to have. You can grill up a bunch of them for the week or whatever, but a lot of people will do that. They'll just grab something easy like that and they think protein, protein, protein. And that you want people to understand we don't we want carbs after a workout. Hmm.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Right. Right, yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm. If you can have I mean, we want both ideally, but if you could choose one or the other, it would be carbs every time.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So let's talk about the intensity or the I don't know what you want to say, but how hard a workout is. Is it more important after you really go hard or is it the same for both a recovery day or an easy day versus a hard day?

Jillian Tholen: The same. I would say it's the same. And I think that goes back to a little bit of what we were just talking about when we were speaking about how recovery is always, right? We don't we're not necessarily recovering less after an easy day than we would be after a hard day, right? And I would say if you're training consistently, your day-to-day nutrition doesn't need to change that much based on your intensity. We still want to kind of be following those consistent eating. patterns and ha it's the habits, right? That build over time. So if you're s so for example, right, if you're telling yourself, well, I only really need to prioritize my post-workout nutrition after my workouts, that's really gonna impact your recovery and your ability to always be recovering if you're not doing that after your easy days, if that makes sense. So we just want consistency. Consistency is the really unsexy basis for you know, for good overall nutrition, for making sure you have energy availability always and you're always adequately fueled and you're always recovering from your training.

Carrie Tollefson: it was really interesting when I had Elise Kopecki on the C Tolly Run podcast and she is known for her soup superhero muffins with Shelane Flanagan, she really talked a lot about how when she went over to Sweden, I believe it was, for half a year or a year, that she felt so much better because of the full fats that she was eating. And that they just they ate well all the time. It wasn't just like, we're gonna eat for this workout or that workout. It was consistency like you talk about. So you saying us focusing on those carbs all the time. Let's focus on protein too. We wanna make sure we have a little bit, but can you talk a little bit about fats and how that truly helps, you know, and we're our audience is endurance athletes, basically. So how does those fats really help us recover and also get ready for workouts?

Jillian Tholen: Hmm. Mm, yes. Mm-hmm. Good question. So you'll notice, right, of the three macronutrients, right, which are fat, protein, and carbohydrates, the two that I've mentioned thus far in this conversation about post-workout nutrition are protein and carbohydrates. We haven't talked about fat at all, right? And one of the reasons for that is because in that really kind of like acute post-workout window, fat's not necessarily the priority. But to your point, those other meals and snacks of the day are, we do want to be including that nutrient. For the satiety factor, right? Fat is really it's a satisfying nutrient. It slows down digestion in a way that's helpful. So it makes us feel fuller longer. it's very nourishing to our brains, our hair, skin, nails, all those things, right? Our hormones really need fat to be produced at optimal levels. so fat is really important for us. And to just meet our energy needs, right? Like if if you're an endurance athlete eating a really, really low fat diet, what I see that the way I see that show up is people are just hungry and they're really struggling to meet their calorie needs overall. Fat really helps us with that as well. So it makes sense that especially if she came from if she came from a prior you know, like mindset where she was trying to eat really low fat just to really maximize her protein and carbohydrate intake, so that she would feel she would have felt a lot better on her just like including it regularly in her diet.

Carrie Tollefson: Well, and I've had people talk about that sentence in particular that she talked about on the podcast. And I did I recommended you to an athlete's mom the other day because she said, Carrie, I listened to Elise's podcast and I wanna know like what kind of fats are good to put on or to add into your diet, you know. I mean, we n we know high fat foods, but I and you're one to say no food is a bad food. So we should be able to enjoy all of that. But is there a certain fat that you recommend to your endurance athletes? Whether that's, you know, avocados or is it just straight up butter? Or are you looking more at something else?

Jillian Tholen: Right. Uh-huh. Yeah. I think it's you'll laugh, right? It's all of the things. We want a balance of many different fat sources, right? So when we break down, if we wanna get scientific, there's monounsaturated fat and polyunsaturated fats and omega-3s and saturated but like there's all these different types of fats right that we can get from different sources and ideally we aren't just focusing on one source or cutting out one source in particular right we want to get fat from all different areas and I think that can help with like you're saying the your relationship with food right and not feeling like well I can only have fat from avocados but I can't have butter or I can only get my fat from these fatty fish because I've heard omega threes are really good for me. but I should never have, you know, like a French fry. It's all of the sources generally. Right. Our balance is, again, not super, I don't know, exciting, but it's that's how we generally keep the well best well-rounded diet and can maintain our relationship with food.

Carrie Tollefson: I think that is so good too. And this is the thing: like you're an endurance athlete. You are somebody that loves to go the long run if you can. You like to get after it doing shorter stuff. And I think that you practice what you preach so much because when I have seen you eat, like you have a rainbow of colors, you do all the things. You never say no to something. You don't get mad at me when we talk about my Dr. Pepper intake. Or having, you know, chips and all that. And I just think that that's important for people to hear. And I think you and I have talked about this too. Like the elite athletes that we know seem to eat more normal, if you can say that with quotation marks. Like they're the ones that just kind of they're working so hard that they want to enjoy their food, but they want to think about what they're putting into their body.

Jillian Tholen: Totally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Ex absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about package stuff then. Like, are you okay with people grabbing protein bars and after workout? I know you're gonna say yes, but they need to have carbs. but like what do you think for quick and convenient if somebody drives to the trail or drives to a pool or wherever they're working out and they're in the car and they need to get that food in?

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think always my number one priority is energy availability. So what I mean by that is essentially getting the food in. Right. And if sometimes that is a protein bar because you did drive to the trail and that was a convenient option you could bring with you because you couldn't come home and make your eggs and toast or your oatmeal that you normally have, that is a much better option than waiting or doing nothing. Right? So that's always what I'm thinking about. Not necessarily like and I think Our culture does this really it does us kind of a disservice, creating this hierarchy like you're speaking of, about like, well, I shouldn't have processed foods, or I shouldn't have packaged foods, or I shouldn't have anything that's high in sugar, for example, or has ingredients in it that I can't pronounce. But if we're avoiding those types of foods Even when they could meet our needs, and then we're kind of waiting or we're trying to be where we're really stressed about getting the perfect option in, we are actually doing ourselves and our recovery a dis a disservice, right? So there's absolutely a time and a place for processed packaged foods. And this is actually a conversation I have with a lot of high school parents where we have to kind of find this balance between like, I don't want All of the intake to be from protein bars and goldfish crackers and protein shakes. However, we can't, we have to have some of those things available because otherwise we're not gonna be able to meet our needs, right? So we find the balance between home cooked meals, prioritizing and planning, prioritizing nutrition in a way that we plan ahead and we have those really awesome options available for us and being really fine with like going to Panera, hitting up Starbucks because we needed something quick or we had to rush out the door, or having cliff bars on hand, having those protein shakes in our backpack or not even in our backpack, but just like in our car, right? At the trailhead. because energy availability is top priority always.

Carrie Tollefson: Energy availability. if you go to the trail, are you someone that will bring a packaged bar or would you prefer to pack your own lunch with homemade food? Does that matter? I mean you kinda alluded to it, but what would you do as a dietitian?

Jillian Tholen: well, first thing is I always have snacks in my car. I tell all of my athletes this. Like in our in our like center console, we always have snacks. I never, I always keep it stocked. We usually have like the Nature's Bakery fig bars are favorites around our house. Usually cli we love Cliff bars. that's like one of the only kind of protein bars I like. I like Go Macro bars as well. Those are our favorite.

Carrie Tollefson: Like what? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love those too. Okay.

Jillian Tholen: I'm very picky about protein bars. You can ask me about that sometime. and let me think. I really like the Velveeta biscuits as well. And my criteria for car snacks are that they can't have chocolate in them because it will melt. that they have to be able to keep well for a while and they can't be too crumbly. I love a nature valley granola bar that cannot be in my car because it will go everywhere. but I truly that that's probably what I would have. I would make sure I had water, maybe some electrolytes, and I would probably just like eat one of my car snacks or bring one of those similar type things along, honestly. I would probably just eat a snack. And then I would come back home.

Carrie Tollefson: Yep. Huh? Yeah. Okay, that's good to hear. Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: home and then I would eat my meal. But I would get that little bit of like I would rehydrate, I would get those carbs in, maybe the cliff bar with some protein depending on what I was feeling, and then I would come home and make a meal. Ideally. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yes. Mm-hmm. And I think it's kind of fun to hear, like you and Ryan definitely like to go out to eat. You guys like to cook at home, but as a dietitian, somebody that knows all of the nutrients, which is so interesting. Every time I think about you, I'm like, she knows everything that we're putting into our bodies. It's crazy. but like you guys do. You're not ones to be like, No, I'm not gonna go out to eat. I'm not gonna eat processed foods. Like you do. You just you're a normal person.

Jillian Tholen: yeah. I don't. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think that's huge. And I mean, I I have tried the cook everything before and it's just not sustainable. Especially when you have children, right? But when you have a job, when you have a life, when you're trying to train, you we do have to not only is it enjoyable, right, to like have someone else cook for you, to go out to a restaurant That's fun, right? That's different. But also it's just a nice break, right? It's nice break from having to like do all the thinking yourself. So yes, of course, 100%.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, I love it. I know. It's so funny though for us. Like I keep thinking, let's go out to eat and let's eat other things that I don't cook. But nope, we go for the fajitas, we go for, you know, the same the pastas, all this stuff. It's just kinda kinda what you what you love. I want to get a little bit like scientific if we can, but maybe in lay terms. Because like it's just interesting, I think. When we come home from a workout and you did talk about trying to get this this fueling in right away, but what actually happens to our muscles, Jillian, if we don't get it in right away? Like, can you break that down a little bit? Because the breakdown is what happens. And that's what we're trying to avoid, right? And try to do by fueling. And it's not just rest that does it.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, right. And I mean, like I said before, we still we're always gonna be recovering, right? So for That's where that day-to-day nutrition is really important. Like, are we eating regular meals and snacks outside of training? But really, when we come back from training, we have to think about what we what we just what are we just put our bodies through, right? When we train, we go out to run, it's a stressor. And our bodies really don't know the difference between us being like, yay, I'm gonna go out for a run and being chased by a tiger, right? So we are we're you We're under the influence of stress. Our adrenaline's high, our cortisol is high, right? Like all these all these markers of stress are elevated in our body. So one of our goals when we come back is to help our body reduce those, bring those back down to those normal levels, right? One of the things that happens when we don't take in nutrition at a reasonable in a reasonable time frame after we train is those markers stay high. Our cortisol, inflammatory markers, our gut is stressed when we come back from training. So if we delay hydration and nutrition, those markers stay high. When things like cortisol are elevated, when inflammatory markers are elevated, when our gut is stressed, All of those make it harder to build muscle, certainly, right? And can kind of further this breakdown stress on our body, right? So our body is more likely to, when it's looking for energy, especially if it's a really long period of time that we don't give our bodies anything, it's gonna start to catabolize or break down our muscle tissue. Not ideal. Our stress, when our stress hormones are high, that's not helpful for things like our sex hormones, right? Our estrogen, our progesterone, our testosterone. We don't want those things to Stay high or even our body composition, right? Consistently elevated cortisol pushes our body more toward like fat storage rather than you know building and maintaining lean muscle. So those are kind of like some, I don't know, more accessory reasons why, not accessory, but just like more, I guess, deep dive reasons why. I just think it's so important to really make sure that we're prioritizing that, that nutrition.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Well and I think a lot of us don't really think about that. We're exactly what is happening. And even you bringing up the hormones that we have for our sex health, is that what you called it?

Jillian Tholen: Right. Yeah, like our sex hormones, right? So the your menstrual cycle, right? Like even you know, all of those hormones are they tend to be very delicate, particularly in female athletes and very, very responsive to changes in energy availability and stress. So particularly again for female athletes, like you can delay that nutrition, but that's more likely in a female athlete to cause kind of like hormonal chaos or hormonal dysfunction. partly because of that elevated stress. those elevated stress levels, but also because of what we mentioned earlier in that within day energy deficit. So the longer period of time that we spend during the day, kind of in a calorie hole, the more dysfunction that we see. So that's again one of the reasons for that consistent nutrition, you know, being so important throughout the day. So that we can avoid those deficits.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, and if so if you have an athlete, and these are things like this is where we could have, you know, just podcast after podcast, but if you have an athlete that's lost their menstrual cycle, one of the things you do is prioritize that fueling within a certain amount of time of their workout or whatever, just to try to get it back in rhythm.

Jillian Tholen: Absolutely. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. The body has to feel safe, right? Our bodies have to feel safe. And cared for and recovery is a part of that. Not fasted training, right? Like being really good about intra-workout fueling if you're going for longer than 60 minutes, really prioritizing post-workout, those are huge in that conversation. But then just being consistent throughout the day as well. And I will say, one thing that I run into pretty often, and this again is like a pretty pervasive way of thinking, and particularly for I would say morning athletes, is that something I'll see is they try. kind of like delay eating for as long as possible or they do eat very little, you know, in the morning, you know, midday, afternoon, trying to kind of save up calories. And that ends up being really unhelpful for both recovery, right? For your next workout, for the your next training, you know, your next training stimulus, but also for things like body composition and hormones. so that's something that I work with a lot of athletes on correcting so that we can just like spread it out throughout the day rather than, you know, kind of saving up, which is again, like I think more of like that budgeting calories kind of mindset that a lot of athletes also struggle with.

Carrie Tollefson: So when you say kind of correcting that is are those are these kind of the athletes I suppose it can pertain to any of them, but you know, you do work with athletes that aren't just super high end, that are trying to make sure their timing is right. You're also working with athletes that are trying to maybe lose some weight or or, you know, go through that health journey as well. And that is where timing is important as well. So how do you handle that those different athletes?

Jillian Tholen: Mm hmm. Right. Mm hmm. Absolutely. Well, I think with athletes who potentially have been restricting calories, for example, to try to lose weight, we really want to talk about mindset and I think that the misinformation that tends to be pretty pervasive about that. so again, if we're saving up calories to the end of the day, that is generally decreasing our metabolic rate throughout the day. Impact on our recovery, certainly. creating hormonal dysfunction, continuing el keeping cortisol elevated, keeping those stress hormones elevated, even elevating inflammatory markers. none of that is helpful for body composition or weight loss, right? If our metabolic rate is low because we're trying to eat as little as possible. Our body's just slowing everything down. That's not promoting weight loss or improved body composition, which is kind of the messaging, right? Like, just eat less, work out more, and then you'll magically lose weight and you know have l have a lower body fat percentage. It just doesn't work that way because of metabolic suppression over time. The other thing I see happening with athletes who have this mindset, especially when they're training a lot, is just like crazy pantry raids and cravings at night. And they feel like they're just like out of control. It's terrible. I mean, when you're getting all your calories at night, that truly is not helpful for body composition either. So really it's working on mindset, right? It's education about like, okay, what's happening when we're restricting all day? Not only for our recovery and our training, but also for our body composition, our stress hormones, all over our things like our lipid health and our cholesterol levels, right? Like all that stuff is impacted. But we also talk about like how by spreading nutrition throughout the day, we can. get rid of kind of those nighttime cravings as well. Or just like they'll feel more satisfied. They're just gonna feel better. They're not gonna be thinking about food all the time. So it's a lot of education and then trying to work on the mindset shifts slowly over time. with those athletes. And I mean I wouldn't do that necessarily that differently with an athlete who didn't have that goal, but with an athlete who has a body composition goal, I think it's just I I think I I try to talk more about the why, right? Like what is the education here? And kind of dig into where did you, where did this misinformation come from or what's been your past experience, right? and not every not it's not always appropriate for an athlete to be l trying to lose weight or having a body composition goal either. So sometimes that can be part of the conversation. Like we just need to dig into body image a little bit, right? Athletes have body image struggles too, much like the regular public, you know, the regular, the regular person. And I think it's a really important thing to talk about that maybe isn't always addressed openly.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. we talk a little bit about female, sex hormones and stuff like that. But a lot of times we don't talk about the male hormones and what athletes of that gender feel like if they are low in something. Like what is that, Jillian? Because we as females have this monthly kind of check-in, right? And if it goes away, it's a really good sign for us to pull back or to figure out what it is. But guys don't have that.

Jillian Tholen: Mm. Totally. Mm. Right. For male athletes, they have a they have a little bit of a little bit more of a cushion to go into that state of low energy availability. Not that that's helpful. But some signs and symptoms I would look for in male athletes would be things like lack of training response, certainly, more little injuries that don't really go away, little niggles, consistent, aches and pains or bone stress injuries, certainly, although that's a pretty like that's maybe a deeper, more chronic issue. Things like, you know, that could point to low testosterone levels could be things like low libido. and then a lack of morning erections. That's one of those that like I think some people feel weird talking about, but like similar to the menstrual cycle in females, that's just like a normal thing for male athletes to experience. And if that is not h if those aren't happening, like that's a cause for concern. So it's it would be more of like those types of really specific symptoms that I would look for in a male athlete.

Carrie Tollefson: think that's a really good one to point out because it you know yeah I think guy athletes now are like a little bit more in tune with or they don't really care about talking about the menstrual cycle because they know how important it is for female athlete and all of us train like I train with your husband all the time. Like we you know I think I could tell Ryan that kind of stuff because he is a coach. He understands a female body like he knows what you have studied and what you do for a living. So we don't have that It's not weird to talk about that stuff anymore. but I feel like guys have always kind of we haven't been able to discuss a lot of things with guys. It it's just not as open. And I feel like all of us are getting to that stage where we need to know this. We need to talk about urine and urine color in athletes and not be like, it's so gross, it's pee. No. This se these are all things that are important for us to know and that fueling can help. how do you think athletes should feel? after they have had proper post workout nutrition. Is that a hard question? Or is that just like you feel like you have that energy, not lagging? Like what is the feeling that you have heard?

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. I think the reason for my hesitation is just I'm thinking through like if they do a good job with their post run nutrition but they haven't fueled beforehand or they do a good job with their post run nutrition but in general they don't, you know, fuel very well. They don't really eat meals or they, you know, skip dinner or whatever, then it's hard to it's hard to isolate that of like how they would feel, you know? because it is so big picture, you know, to everything. I mean they should feel good. As long as they're doing all the other things well, you know.

Carrie Tollefson: Ha ha Yeah, and that makes sense. Like if you have that consistency as you talk about, then you should just feel like, okay, I'm ready to go again or I'm ready to go throughout the day, but it's when you're really lagging that you're not doing it right. You gotta figure out the timing better. And like I said, we could definitely dig into all kinds of things, but we gotta get we gotta let you go. How can an athlete connect with you? That's the big thing. People have these they're gonna have all kinds of questions after this. Like we've kind of gotten this one umbrella, but there's all kinds of things that come out from it. So how can people connect with you?

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Great question. So I have a website and a contact form on there. So you can find me on my website. Send me a message through that form if you want to. I also like connecting with people on Instagram. I love a DM on Instagram. So please find me on there. Send me a DM there. those are probably your best two spots. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. And we have all your info in the show notes as well. So you can find Jillian whenever wherever you need to. She is right there waiting for your email or a call or whatever. Yep. Okay, let's do the cooldown. Which I guess I just want to ask, are you a warm-up gal or a cooldown gal? Like what did you what were you more excited about?

Jillian Tholen: my gosh, I hate cooldowns. I can't even tell you how much I hate cooldowns. I yes. I don't know if it's just my style of competitor. Like I will go so hard during a race. I have no need for a cooldown. I'm so done. I'm like, I will walk. I will walk. I will not run.

Carrie Tollefson: Really? You just were like, get me get me into my meal. Haha I'm building you.

Jillian Tholen: ask, you can ask many people who've tried to get me to cool down in the past. Absolutely not. I once had a coach who like wrote cool down mileage into my training plan, and I was like, zero. Zero out of ten. I will not be doing this. No. I will run a longer warm-up. I will be happy to do that. that is a very easy answer for me. How about you?

Carrie Tollefson: So funny. No, not happening. I love it. I think that I liked the cooldown. I I enjoyed the time, like kind of talking about the race, like talking about the workout. But I always was like, Yes, it's almost done. You know, by the time I got to the cooldown I was like, it's almost over. So

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would say a cooldown from a workout feels very different though. I would I I would happily do that, but after a race, no.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I did I was never afraid to skip the cooldown. But or do like a little bit, like a half mile or something like that. Yes. Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: Right, do like a I would do like a jog a half a mile but then I'm just like, mmmm I'm done.

Carrie Tollefson: But times have changed. Now people go from races to do more workouts. They do tempo runs after. It's on I didn't do all that. But anyway. Okay, here's the cool down question from our audience. This is all the way from Colorado. Brandon asks, I've heard that smoothies are not a great nutrition choice because you lose the full benefit of the ingredients when you blend them up. Is that true?

Jillian Tholen: I know, I know. my gosh. man, the internet was blowing up about this this weekend. Did you see that? There was a woman who she was on, she was on like believe the Mel Robbins podcast, and she was talking about how she never combines her bananas with her blueberries and her smoothies because there's this enzyme in bananas that essentially negate the effect the positive effect of blueberries, which like I'm gonna be honest with you, I have no time for that kind of messaging. That is so far from how we need to be thinking about our food intake. Like these are the reasons that people are confused about what to eat and when. We all need bananas and blueberries in our lives. Like more of those for everybody. And to this question, right? I think what he's I wonder if what he's alluding to is maybe some of this messaging of like, well certain, you know, enzymes and antioxidants are canceled out by each other. Again, that's we don't we don't necessarily need to go into the weeds on that, right? I think smoothies are actually a great nutrition choice. And I'll tell you why. So particularly for athletes who, like we talked about, really maybe struggle with like taking the time to eat, or maybe they really have a low appetite. Because it's blazing hot outside and they really are susceptible to that post-workout appetite suppression and they have high needs, right? Like most of us do. Smoothies are a wonderful way to get a good amount of nutrition in. And that it's kind of easy, right? You can pack a smoothie full of carbohydrates and you can get protein in there. You can get fiber in a smoothie. You can add your Chia seeds and your flax seeds and you get fiber from your berries. You can put a handful of greens in there. It I think they're wonderful vehicles for like a full recovery meal or just like a ton of nutrition and an easy to take down kind of yeah, in vessel. Like I love a smoothie for f to recommend for an athlete. So I would say go forth and drink smoothies, please.