Run Feeling Fueled: Carbohydrate Periodization Made Easy

Carrie Tollefson: Hey everybody, welcome to the RunDot Podcast. Today we have our favorite registered dietitian joining the show to teach us how to change our eating habits based on how our training ebbs and flows day to day, week to week, and season to season. Her name is Jillian Tholen, and she's from St. Paul, Minnesota. Woo-hoo! She lives a few blocks away from me and is a very good friend of mine. Jillian specializes in helping runners, skiers, cyclists, and other active individuals learn how to best fuel their bodies for training, performance, and life. She's a lifelong runner as well. She's a collegiate all-American and cross-country at Augustana University and has continued to run and train since then. Hey Jillian, welcome back.

Jillian Tholen: Hi Carrie, it's fun to be here. Excited to talk.

Carrie Tollefson: Haha, I I know, I can't wait to talk carbs. But if you guys are new to the show or if you're just returning, I'm Carrie Tollefson. I'm an Olympian, I'm a broadcaster in your guide to the world of RunDot. We treat each show like a good workout. We'll start with the warm-up question, settle into the main set question or conversation, and then we're gonna wind things down by having Jillian answer an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff today, so let's get after it. Alright, Jolly and we're gonna do the warm-up question. Are you ready for it? Okay. So sometimes on a vacation, it is a vacation away from running. But other times, vacations can be a good excuse to run somewhere new. And for today's warm-up question, I wanna know what's your favorite run you've ever taken while on vacation.

Jillian Tholen: Ready. Ooh, this is a good question. I had to think about this one. several come to mind, but one of my favorites that I can remember was going on a run in have you run in Forest Park in Portland before?

Carrie Tollefson: I don't think so. Maybe I have.

Jillian Tholen: It's a really wonderful, huge, huge park in Portland, Oregon. And I went on a run there with my husband Ryan and one of his good college friends a couple years ago when we were out there. And it's just so beautiful, so green. Like you could just go forever in there. So gorgeous. That's one that really came to mind for me.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Oregon does have some awesome trails. Like we race a lot in Eugene, so going on the pre's trails are beautiful. I mean I love I love running where we live. So to be honest, every time I go on vacation I'm like, I wanna just come home and run. But I

Jillian Tholen: yes. Yes. yes. Those are great. I yes, same. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: I would have to say what came to mind for me was the Paris Olympics when I did the commentary in twenty twenty four. a couple of my really good friends, Katie McGregor, who was my training partner, is from Minnesota, she came over and then Jay Holder was there too. And we like h I didn't have any time to sightsee. So I we would just I think it was like two or three days out of that trip where we just went to see all the sights. And we were sweaty and we were gross and all of our pictures, but at least I got to see them. And now I'm gonna have to take my husband back. To actually like go in, you know, and see things. But that is a really good way to see a city or a country or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But then there are times where you just leave your shoes at home and you go lay on a beach and fully recovered too, or whatever. So, you know, whatever whatever's for you. But those were that was my thought and fun to hear yours. Now I need to go to Portland and run. I bet the trees are just amazing.

Jillian Tholen: Yes, yes, absolutely. I could not agree more. I love that about running. Also that. Mm, yes, a hundred percent. yeah, Forest Park. You gotta try you gotta go someday.

Carrie Tollefson: Fourth part. All right, Jillian. Well, we are gonna get into the main set here. So we're gonna talk about carbohydrate periodization. That is a fancy way of saying eating more carbs or less carbs based on activity level. So let's get into that a little bit. Can you unpack that for us?

Jillian Tholen: Yes. So if we think about our energy needs when we're training, right? I think a lot of people have questions about or a lot of runners have questions about how much do I eat when I'm, you know, in the off season or I'm running twenty miles a week versus I'm in the midst of marathon training or I'm in cross country I'm in like your cross country season or your track season and I'm running fifty, sixty miles a week, or I'm running these huge long runs, right? how what do I change? What how do I how do I do things differently to match my training level? And of course, your energy needs are gonna be higher the more you're training, right? But particularly when we think about the three macronutrients, right? Fat, protein, and carbohydrates, the one that changes the most to account for that increased energy need is carbohydrates. So typically protein and fat needs stay pretty stable, whether you're running 20 miles a week or 70 miles a week. It's our carbohydrate needs that really change. So that's what we're talking about today when we're talking about carb periodization.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, so it's weird though because for me I this is like we're pretty focused on this today. Carbohydrate periodization, not necessarily just fuel periodization, right? Explain the difference a little bit there.

Jillian Tholen: Right, right, right. Mm-hmm. Exactly. If I think about fuel, like that term, I think about overall energy intake, right? How many calories in general do I need to fuel my training and my basic body functions in a day or in a week or whatever, right? So that's again, fat, protein, and carbohydrates make up our energy our energy intake in a day. That's different than carbohydrate periodization, just in that our carbohydrate needs, right, like make up a part of that. but the carb the carbs are what really change when our training changes, if that makes sense. I don't know if I explained that very well.

Carrie Tollefson: No. I get it. I get it for sure. I think that what's interesting for an athlete though is when they get up and they like look at their scheduling, like on their RunDot app or whatever it is, do you think that they should like think about that carbohydrate periodization then and like what they're doing before the workout and maybe during if it's long enough and then after? I mean I think that's the main thing that we're talking about.

Jillian Tholen: Right, yes. So when I think about carbohydrate periodization, I don't really think about dialing it in so much that you were we're really intentionally changing it day to day. It has more to do with how many hours of training are we doing in a week, let's say. because The reason I don't like to dial it in so much day to day is because if we, for example, if you're running like a ten mile long run one day, right? And you Tailored your exact carbohydrate needs for that day, and then you had a rest day the next day, and you were like, well, I'm not really running today, so I don't need to eat as many carbs today. What we do is we undermine our recovery. So that's why we really need to zoom out and think about like, okay, what does my week look like? Not necessarily what does my day look like. What is my you know, three, four-week block look like? Am I in the middle of marathon training? In which case, like your carbs needs are just gonna be high. so I look at more like weekly volume in terms of of mileage or hours of training per week when I'm thinking about carb periodization rather than intensity or duration or mileage in one day. Is that helpful?

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm, that makes sense. Yes, for sure. So, like when you are kind of thinking about your week, are there do's and don'ts for manipulating this carb intake? And I think you would say no, because if we could look at it all, we want to have it be kind of consistent. But I mean, like, do you plan it out in all of your meals and snacks? Like, what are you thinking? It's because it can get a little overwhelming for some of us that don't quite have the same mind as you do when it comes to this.

Jillian Tholen: Well I guess I think about Yes, consistency, right? And I think w the what I was just alluding to with that that kind of mindset of like, well, I need to eat more carbs specifically on days that I'm running and fewer carbs or less even just fewer calories when I'm not running, that's a mindset that we really want to work on, right? With that consistency. When we just look at our whole right, we don't we don't wanna be thinking that way. Because again, that undermines our recovery. Our bodies are always recovering, particularly after in the middle of big training blocks, right? Even if it's a re even if it's a rest day, right, we still need a lot. Of nutrition. We need a lot of carbohydrates to help our bodies get ready for the next effort and repair from the last one, recover from the last one. So that's why we don't want to necessarily intentionally decrease carbohydrate intake or energy intake on those days. and I guess to get at your question a little differently, yes, we want to be looking at every meal and snack and what we'll say proportion of carbohydrates make up that meal or snack. That's how I like to have my athletes think about it. So we can we can look at carbohydrate needs in a couple different ways. We can look at, you know, the table of guidelines, right? That says, you know, if you're exercising, let's say under an hour per day, this is the grams per kilogram. You need like three to five grams per kilogram of body weight of carbohydrate. or, you know, and and up from there. I'm not gonna go through that whole table on this podcast because that would just be too many numbers to conceptualize. But yeah, well that and everyone's car yeah, everyone's training volume's different. What I like to also you know, and a different framework I like to use with my athletes is something called the performance plate, which I'm not sure that we've talked about on this podcast before. I can't remember if we have. I'm sorry. But What that is is more of a visual representation of what our plates should look like, depending on our phase of training or our training volume. So it's broken into three kind of versions: an easy or moderate week, or like I'm sorry, an easy or more like off-season week, a moderate week or a hard training week. and they're all based on all of the plates we'll say are based on a certain number of hours per week, for example. But let's say Just to give an example of this, like if you were in the middle of marathon training, you're training like 30 to 40 miles a week or more, you're training like six to eight hours a week or more. for an athlete like that, what that plate looks like is 50% of your of every meal needs to be carbohydrates. So that's like half of your plate is rice, half of your plate is pasta. You have a sandwich and some pretzels at your lunch. and then, you know, that 25% is protein. 25% is then your colorful foods. So it's broken down into carbohydrates, protein foods, and then colorful foods. But it's really the carbs that we're looking at. That's what shifts. So in contrast, right, if you are on an easier week or it's in the off-season, your carbs might look more like 25% of your plate versus, and then maybe your protein and your colorful foods are taking up bigger proportions. Does that make sense? As we speak through that?

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, definitely makes sense. But I so now I have this visualization of the plates. So when you have a lower intensity week or s or training block, you know, a higher intensity week or training block. So tell me a little bit about the periodization then of carbohydrates. Like when do we have fifty percent carbs and twenty five and twenty five of the others? Is that all the time, every time we're eating, or is that just before big workout? Okay.

Jillian Tholen: Right. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It is. It is always. It's always, always. Like when I when I look at my kind of my guidelines that I use with athletes, like for a hard for kind of like that hard volume where you're always gonna be eating fifty percent plus carbs in your meals, that's like more than forty miles a week typically, more than eight hours of training per week. which is like one to three hours a day, like doesn't take much to get up there, right? Any long run day, like a high intensity day, double training day as well. But again, like I don't really look at the individual days as much. I'm looking at like globally what does your week look like? What kind of a training block are you in? So in that and in that case, to answer your question, yes, we would be thinking about every day. This is every day your intake should look like that. One of the things that changes when you have like a rest day, for example, let's say you're in the middle of marathon training and you run six days a week and you have your Sundays off or Mondays off or whatever, you probably are organically gonna get a little bit less from your snacks because you're not having a pre-run snack if you go in the morning, or you're not having maybe that post-run snack. But you might also be hungrier at your meals, so you're probably still gonna be eating a similar amount. So anyway, I always think too about how we still wanna rely on our body's cues. If we're still hungry, right? Outside of our performance plate, if we're still craving more carbohydrates, we listen to that. If we're still hungry after a meal, we have a snack, right? So in that way as well, we're not We're not being so kind of calculating as in like, well, I did my long run today so I should eat more and I'm this is my rest day, so I should be I shouldn't be eating as many snacks or I'm so hungry after this meal but I shouldn't be eating. and that also helps us I think maintain our carbohydrate intake as well when we're able to listen to our bodies.

Carrie Tollefson: Well and I think a lot of people think, it was twelve hours ago, it doesn't is not affecting me anymore. It's already out. Like but that's not true.

Jillian Tholen: Totally. Right, not necessarily. I always tell people when we think like that because we're so trained to be like, Well, how many calories do I need in a day? How many carbohydrates do I need in a day? How many like how much protein do I need in a day? We do not just reset to zero at twelve midnight, right? Especially if you're an athlete who's consistently training. Your body is still recovering from that effort you did yesterday, right? So your metabolic rate is maybe still elevated. If you're a little bit sore, that's also always a sign that your body is working on repairing something. I always remind myself of that. Like if I'm sore, I'm like, yeah, well, it makes sense that I would be hungrier because my body is obviously repairing my muscles, right? So sometimes we need a little bit of those reminders to be like, yeah, it's okay to eat, it's fine, right? We don't need to hunger is not something to be figured out always, but it is something to respond to. So again, like we just we never know what our bodies. are doing for us in the way of recovery or any other thing that they're working on, any other bodily function. So yeah, we don't just start over at zero every day. We never know.

Carrie Tollefson: I think this is fascinating because yes, we do need to listen to our bodies. Yes, we do need to like listen for those cues. But you as an athlete, like if your muscles are sore, what is the first thing that you think of as a registered dietitian that you need to replenish with?

Jillian Tholen: I don't honestly think of a specific nutrient. I just think like, wow, I probably need a lot of energy to I mean, again, like we've talked about on previous podcasts, energy availability is number one. So we want to make sure that we eat enough overall calories, we get in enough overall energy to fuel our recovery, to make sure that our bodies aren't feeling stressed, that they're feeling safe, that our hormones are in a good place, that our, you know, we can we can recover properly. And so that's what I think of, truly. I don't necessarily think like, I need more protein or I need more carbohydrates. I just think of energy first. But maybe I do need more carbs. Then I think we c then I think I would probably ask my body ask myself what sounded good. but I do think to your to your point about cues Yes, we can always respond when we're hungry, but the flip side of that is that particularly when carbohydrate needs are so high, one thing that I find in practice with a lot of my athletes is that they're not always aware of how many carbohydrates they need. so it can be really important to kind of understand your needs based on your training level and really take the time to either figure it out or and maybe we'll come back to this, like really work with somebody who can help you understand your needs. And then practice what it feels like to hit those goals, right? Because you might be full. you know, before you have actually hit your goals for carbs. Or maybe you're overdoing it on the protein and you won't don't realize that. And that also makes it hard to get enough carbohydrates in. So when we're speaking about carb periodization, it is really important to really know what you need based on your training level and then to practice hitting those goals because it can be actually really tough. I've worked with very few, if any, runners who when they first start working with me are eating enough carbs. And I find it hard a lot of times without a lot of intention or like a lot of practice. to make sure I get enough carbohydrates. So I will I will say that. Regarding cues, right? Like sometimes we don't we don't actually get the appropriate cues to meet our needs, which can be kind of confusing, I think, for athletes.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. And now For sure. Sometimes it's just that easy, whatever you can just grab feels good, but I think we do need to try to listen to our bodies just like we do when we're listening to injury or fatigue, that kind of thing. Fuel I mean, sometimes our fuel warning or whatever signal is spot on. It's exactly what we need. It might be like, I need to go to the Dairy Queen and have a double cheeseburger. Well, you might be needing all those carbs, the protein, also the sodium, things like that. You don't want to always neglect that for sure.

Jillian Tholen: Totally. Mm-hmm. Well and on the flip side, right, when it's whenever we train at a high intensity, which any run is a high intensity activity, right? Even if you're going for an easy run, that is high intensity exercise. There's some appetite suppression that most runners will experience after that, right? Or when it's hot and humid, I don't know about you, but my appetite is terrible. So, on the flip side of what you're saying, right, we always want to lean in when we're feeling like, my gosh, yeah, I need a double cheeseburger. I'm so, I really want, I really need all those nutrients. Sometimes we have to be very intentional about fueling even when we don't want to, or we don't necessarily have that cue. So that is something that's maybe a different even like a different topic, but that's another part of the conversation, right? When we're really taking care of ourselves with nutrition. We can't only rely on our cues. Sometimes we have to rely on our understanding and knowledge of our needs as well to truly like hit the mark. Same, honestly.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My stomach's growling right now, Jillian. I'm getting hungry talking about all this. I bet yours does a lot when you're talking about all this good food. let's talk a little bit about carb carbo loading. I mean, this is a big thing. And like, what do you feel about that? Is that kind of like old school? Do we still we still do it, obviously, but where has that evolved with carbohydrate periodization?

Jillian Tholen: Ooh yeah. I think the thing that's old school about the carbohydrate loading or the carbo loading conversation is how it used to be talked about. Which I don't know about you, but I remember when I was a high school cross country runner and there's no I have no I I have no issue with this when it relates to things like team camaraderie, like eating food, whatever. But we would do our carbo loading, you know, spaghetti suppers is what we called them before every cross-country meet, right? We ran 4K. I know that's a long time ago in Minnesota, but that's like two and a half miles, right? We were gonna run a two and a half mile cross-country race the next day. So we did our carbo loads. Like, was that necessary? No, of course not. Nor if but how at the same time, like if you're gonna go run a marathon and you're thinking like, I'm gonna carbload for this, a plate of pasta the night before is not a carb load. So I think again, what has evolved is that we understand now that if I eat a high carb meal before my marathon, yeah, that's f that's good. But it's not that's not really what we're talking about. We're talking about carbohydrate loading. Carb loading is like very intentionally eating A lot, lot, lot of carbs for the two to three days prior to a big endurance event. And usually I would say like, you know, half marathon and up, or anything that's gonna be over like 90 60 to 90 minutes. Mm-hmm, 60 minutes is probably a little a little bit low. You could probably do a short carb load for a 60-minute event, but anything over like 60 to 90 minutes, then we actually wanna think about being intentional with eating. eight to twelve grams per kilogram of carbohydrate for the one to three days before. So that's kind of like a lot to wrap our heads around, but for reference. So let's see. I'm just gonna do a quick calculation. I have to use my phone because I can't do mental math, but

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. I was trying to think that. Like say you're a hundred and twenty pounds. What does that mean? Well, I'm glad you do because I would too.

Jillian Tholen: So if I say I'm a 120-pound runner, let's say 120 divided by 2.2 is that's how I get my kilograms of body weight. So that's like 55 kilograms would be my weight. So if I took that times eight. That would be four hundred and thirty-six grams of carbs. And that would be per day for let's say the three days leading up to a marathon. That's a pretty good amount of carbs, right? but that's the low end, right? So let's see if we took 55 times 12, the high end for me would be 660 grams of carbs. So like to put that into perspective, a bagel is about 60 grams of carbohydrates. That would be, that'd be like 11 bagels for me.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Phew. Yeah. And that feels and bagels feel sometimes a lot. You know? They're dense, they're heavy. Sure.

Jillian Tholen: Yes. Yeah, so there's strategy involved, right? For a lot of athletes, like this is a something I want them to practice before, like on a big long run, like not just do a carbload before their race, because we really want to tweak things, right? I would not eat 11 bagels for per day for a carb load. I would probably eat some bagels, but I would also eat some rice. I would probably eat drink some tailwind high carb. I would be making sure that I was making having some pancakes with a good amount of syrup, right? Like I would wanna, I would wanna combo sweet and savory things that are liquid versus actually food, right? Like so there's a lot of strategy as well that goes into carb carb loading. but there's absolutely science to back it up as well. If we can really, really top off those glycogen stores, our ability to really nail the last like bit of that marathon where a lot of people fall off is so much better. Our hydration status is better. So we see le we see fewer issues with dehydration because when we store glycogen, we also store water with that. Just it overall performance is much better in those long events when we are really intentional with carb loading. So there's absolutely merit to it. Great research, great science, great anecdotal evidence, right? From people who have really nailed their carb loads. but you know, again, to go back to what you were talking about before, what has evolved is that we understand that it's not just a plate of pasta the night before. It takes some intention and practice. And it is really hard. I think it's very hard to execute. Like a lot of people when they do a good carb load. by the end of their like by the end of their period of time they're just like my god all I want is like a carrot and a steak like you just like don't want to see another carb for a long time that's a really good sign that you have nailed it your car float

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've heard that. And you almost feel a little like puffy. Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: Puffy, yes. And that's from water retention, literally, right? Like, which doesn't feel great. I think a lot of times body image-wise, even it's just like, ugh, I don't like the way this feels. It is very much for a functional purpose. You will definitely feel different after your run, after your race, but yeah, you're absolutely right. That's also another kind of like side effect of that, that a good carb load.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. And the science, a lot of people know this, but the science behind a carbo load, like on a marathon, for instance, where do we really go into those storage? Like where where do we need that carb? Is it the end of the race? Is it the whole race? What is it? Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: Usually that's when we see it. Yeah, that's when we see it really make a difference is the end. And my take on that, especially because I mean, we are gonna also be fueling. It's not like we carb load and then we're like, no, I don't have to fuel my marathon. Like I don't have to take, you know, my gels or my chews or whatever. but at the end of the marathon, one of the things that happens so frequently is GI issues due to dehydration or cramping due to dehydration. So I actually think that one of the biggest, and this is like my theory, to be honest. I think that one of the biggest benefits of carb loading is actually hydration status is so much improved. And that is why we see people really nailing the end of their marathons. Because when you get dehydrated at the end of a marathon, one of the things that becomes more challenging is, well, taking in your nutrition. So not only are you is it harder to just like take down fluids, but we have more GI issues due to the dehydration. It makes it harder to continue fueling. When your hydration status is better, you are gonna be able to continue to fuel more proper like easier, right? And you're just not gonna hit that wall then, right? From hydration or nutrition, you know, fueling standpoint at the end of the race. That is my theory as as to how it really helps in those la latter stages of a marathon or a longer race.

Carrie Tollefson: So Jillian, do people hire you just to kind of help them through their training block and their race as well as for, you know, just lifelong nutrition?

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, I would say like a lot of athletes have a specific I'm training for this race. I'm gonna run like I have someone right now who's training for the superior marathon on superior hiking trail in September. Or like the Twin Cities Ten Mile or the Twin Cities Marathon or CIM or you know, they have these big races that they're training for. but over the course of a training block, we're We're working on day-to-day nutrition foundationally, right? Not only are we kind of mapping out like, okay, yes, we wanna be aiming for like 60 grams of carbs per hour, or this is our fueling and hydration strategy for long runs and race day, or this is our, you know, pre-race meal that we're gonna practice, or this is our carb load. Like we practice that really race-specific stuff in the months leading up to the race, but also we're talking about day-to-day nutrition, because as we have talked about today, that's actually what turns the needle on like a really good race performance, right? Because then you're not getting hurt. You are recovering more optimally. You're more thoughtful about your nutrition. You're hitting not only like your carb goals every day, but like you're making sure that you're getting your protein in and your fiber. And so that is kind of those lifelong habits that come back to the day-to-day that also then support your training and your best performance at your race because you have good energy availability and you're feeling good and you're recovering and you're responding to your training. So it all really goes together Which is again why like you know, as you're you kind of you kind of ask like is it training or is it kind of just like specific to just every day? It's really helpful to work together for like four to six months. Not just like, well, I have this race coming up, so I'm gonna hire you for like the month before, or I'm just gonna talk to you one time about what I should do before a race. For some athletes that's really appropriate when they've really done the work and they know that they've nailed their day to day and their long run and their their preparation for like their whole training block. But a lot of athletes do best with like just that consistent that consistent li setting little goals, understanding on what they're working on, setting the foundation, and then really building on that over a series of months. And then yeah, they nail their race and they're like good to go, right? That's always my goal with athletes too, where We can work together for a chunk of time and then they feel so confident that they just got it. And they're like, yes, I understand now. I so understand the value of the day-to-day and what I need to prioritize and how to tweak things for races and how to carb load that they're just like good to go, you know? They don't need me anymore. Like that's always my goal. Like I love my athletes, but I don't want them to keep needing me, you know.

Carrie Tollefson: That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what I think when I'm just watching you speak about that is the day to day, the lifelong journey in nutrition, but also now like we have kids. I I look at my children and they're so busy and they're playing, you know, baseball games, you know, multiple a day or they're at camps and they're gone all day, like knowing how to fuel myself, but then also how to fuel them, who are probably like they're probably working out more than I am. Like that's what it's so helpful having a professional like you to be able to tell us and then maybe we use that in our household.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Well right. Well, I think we maybe have touched on this before too, but regarding like the carbohydrate periodization for an adult athlete, which is what we're speaking to, sometimes I get questions about, well, what is this supposed to look like for like if my high school athlete is, you know, training for their season and they have easy days, moderate days, hard days, should their plates and their proportion of carbohydrates, protein, color, should that change just like mine? The answer is actually no. A car a high school athlete. Their needs for carbohydrates are so high at all times that it's always a hard plate. It's always 50 to 65% carbohydrates and then your fist protein and your color, right? Get that on there somehow. But because they're still growing and developing, right? Like bone density, brain development, height, weight, like they're still growing. Their needs are so high, and their carb needs in turn are extremely high. So that's something that I always like to tell parents to honestly reassure them because it's something I hear a lot. Like my kid eats so many. carbohydrates, I'm worried it's bad for them, it's unhealthy. No. What would be unhealthy is you to like hold them back from that. Yes, we want to make sure they're getting their protein and their fruits and veggies, but like then your carb needs are just like through the roof. So yes. Hard plate always.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. So that handful or two that, you know, of you know, I buy the bulk goldfish and extra cheddar. you know, that's okay. Those are good things and they probably are craving that, the carbohydrates.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, yeah, yes. Good, yes. Yep, good. Yes, that's yes. Yeah, a hundred percent. Especially if they're playing like multiple games in a day. Like their car knees are just like they're just wild. I yeah. I know I'm gonna deal with this at some point too. Carrie, my two and a half year old ate an entire punch pizza the other day. Can you believe that? Like

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. for sure. Yeah. he is growing so fast. So good. my gosh. And he kept it down. It didn't come back up. well he he's got. Yeah, he's on the move. I mean, that's a whole second workout for you, just counting the steps after him. I love it. how can people get in touch with you, Jillian?

Jillian Tholen: For anyone not from Minnesota, that is like a Neapolitan style pizza. He's two and a half. I was so impressed. I was just like, yeah, he was like good to go. He was like so impressed. Yeah. I have no idea how we're gonna keep him fed when he's like 15. My website's a great place. there's a contact form. You can see all the ways that we can work together if you're interested in that. like I said, I love to work one-on-one with athletes for like four to six months at a time. That's my bread and butter. but you can always just contact me if you have any questions via my contact form too. I also love connecting with people on Instagram. I try to be somewhat available on there and love answering. questions or having conversations in my DMs as well. So I know that all that info is in the show notes. You can find me there. but yeah, love to hear from listeners. I would love that.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Well and I can vouch for this lady. She loves all different types of people, not just athletes. You do work with a lot of athletes, but all kinds of people and very, very kind woman here. So get in touch, Jillian. We have one more question for you. We have the cooldown question. And it's coming from one of my very favorite places in the whole US. It's from San Diego. And this is Avery. They write, My kiddos eat a lot of fruit. So naturally, with it in the house, I have a good variety. I've heard it said that grapes are mostly just sugar bombs and should be avoided. This is new to me. Not sure if it's true or not, they say. So overall. Curious if there are fruits that are better for runners to eat more of, and if there are some that should be avoided.

Jillian Tholen: Ooh. I would say eat all of the fruit your heart desires. No reason to avoid any fruit. As we often talk about, as I often talk about, all food is good food, right? There's no food that is bad or off limits or should be of anything that should be avoided in general, if you like it. and everything is part of a good balanced diet. So especially when I mean I've heard some of this rhetoric in the past as well. Like even just I've actually heard people say I should just I I heard I should never eat fruit because it's high in sugar. Please, please eat fruit. Fruit not only gives us carbohydrates, but it also is such a wonderful source of micronutrients, which we love. Field, so important, and hydration as well. That's a fun bonus that we get from fruit. You don't have to avoid grapes. Grapes have polyphenols, antioxidants, fiber. Again, hydration, they have carbohydrates as well. But as you know, after listening to today- listening today, not only do your kids need a lot of carbohydrates, but so do you. Carbs are carbs are carbs, right? If you get them from a banana, if you get them from your grapes, if you get them from your rice, your pasta, you need all the carbs. So please enjoy your grapes if you really like them. No need to avoid.