How to Fuel Your Next Training Session

Carrie Tollefson: Hey everybody, welcome to the RunDot Podcast. Today we have my favorite registered dietitian with us to help us fuel our next training session correctly. Her name is Jillian Tholen and she shares the same zip code as me from St. Paul, Minnesota. Jillian specializes in helping runners, skiers, cyclists, and other active individuals learn how to best fuel their bodies for training, performance, and life. She's a lifelong runner. She was a collegiate all-American and cross country at Augustana where my dad played football. Woo woo! And has continued to run and train since then. Hey, Jillian, welcome back to the show.

Jillian Tholen: So crazy. Hi, Carrie. Thanks for having me back. It's good to see you.

Carrie Tollefson: Hi. Yeah, I'm excited to have you. And everyone, I'm Carrie Tollefson. I'm an Olympian, broadcaster, and your guide to the world of RunDot. We treat the show like any good workout. We'll start with our warmup questions, settle into our main set conversation, and then wind down with having Jillian answer an audience question on the cool down. Lots of good stuff today, so let's get after it. Okay, Jill, are you ready for the warmup question? Okay, so oftentimes people have these dreams about the activities that we do during the day. I want to know if you've ever dreamt about running and what has happened while you're running in your dreams.

Jillian Tholen: Okay, I have, I did think of one time this happened, not even super recently, but semi recently. and to preface it, have kind of been the last, the last three years or so, I haven't been running as consistently as I would like to, to, you know, injuries, pregnancy, all of that. So I recently just, the dream that I'm remembering is literally this like dream of me. just running on the River Trail, which is my favorite place in St. Paul to run. And I was just, I was running in this like, on the perfect day. It was the morning, it was like glowing. It was that feeling of like when you're just out for a run and everything feels perfect. That was my dream. It was like this ideal, that's what I want to be able to do again. I miss that so much kind of thing. So was like this really happy dream. We're getting there. Yeah, exactly. Like floating. Everything's glowing, right? It's like springtime. The birds are chirping. Yeah, my favorite place to run in the world. It's not very interesting, but that's the one I could call upon from memory.

Carrie Tollefson: And you see your tall handsome husband running towards you, maybe with the jogger stroller and your little guy. Okay, and that one, you had some alone time. That's so funny. I love it. My dreams are not so much like that. Mine are like nightmares when it comes to running. Like when I read this question, I was like, I don't think of like,

Jillian Tholen: Yeah Well, I was alone, but that might also have been part of the dream as well. But that was mine. What was yours, Carrie?

Carrie Tollefson: these, you know, going through the field of daisies and running on this little trail. think of like bringing two left shoes to a race, like not finding a parking spot and missing the gun, like all these things. And I feel like I have the same nightmare over and over and over again. Like also, I remember not getting my warm up pants off before the four by eight. And I have that dream still. I don't know why I'm not running four by eights anymore, Jillian. So, yeah, so I maybe need to get a little more zen in my sleep and not be so crazy all the time.

Jillian Tholen: think your running career was a lot more high stakes than mine though. So that makes sense to me. Like your racing situations. I did not.

Carrie Tollefson: No. my gosh. I don't know. The more I go through life, the more I realize how intense I am. Like I am intense. Would you agree? I don't know. Like I think of that. I helped coach at Ruby's team a little bit this year and I could see sometimes some of the young athletes like, whoa, okay coach, I'll do whatever you say.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, I think you're intense. It's like one of your best qualities.

Carrie Tollefson: So yeah, those are more my dreams. They're kind of\... or like yeah, I was just reading my notes. Like I stopped a lap short. Like always had that nightmare. Especially indoor 5Ks because yeah, it's a long ways to go indoors. So many laps. I used to close my eyes when I went by the lap counter because I didn't want to know. It was a little too long for me. Yeah, so\...

Jillian Tholen: There's so many laps. That could set you up for missing a laugh if you're it the wrong time.

Carrie Tollefson: But for sure. But anyway, I I love to run, but I do love, you know, you got to stay on your toes. You got to be ready for it. So those are my dreams. And as I go through life, I hope that it kind of calms down and it's more of the running on the river road and just being in bliss like you. get into the main set. mean, you know that this is always a hot topic is. nutrition and fueling and all of that. And we just want to feel the best we can. And it's it's awesome that you have a big passion for it and you love to talk about this and help others. And it's really fun to watch. And actually, big shout out because you are getting ready to host a big event. Let's just talk about this real quick before we get into the main set. You are hosting a really fun event. Ruby and I were chatting last night about it with our with her friends and we're getting ready to sign up. But you're kind of having like a little bit of a seminar this summer. here in Minnesota, so tell us about it.

Jillian Tholen: Thanks. Yes, a local coach and I are gonna just based on our own experience and a need that we see and athletes we've worked with in the community, just in the world at large, we are putting together kind of like you said, a mini seminar clinic for high school female athletes and their parents and coaches and support people just to talk more about what it means to fuel well as a female athlete and how to build a positive team culture around. fueling, nutrition, body image, all of that. you know, keeping, keeping girls in sport as well, so that we don't run into eating disorders, disordered eating, career ending injuries, or burnout, things like that. And again, like this is a really big passion area for both of the Maggie, my cohost and I. So we just kind of put it together and we're going to try it out, see what happens. And we're hoping we can. really get a good group to talk to and just start spreading, do more spreading the word on this topic.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love Maggie. She's awesome. So it's gonna be great. Gabby Rooker is gonna come, elite marathoner from here in Minnesota. But I love that you're giving back to the younger generation and, and, you know, lifting them up and helping them with their early career of their running. We hope it's a lifelong sport though. So, okay, let's get into this main set. How big of a difference can proper fueling have on how we feel or perform during our workout? So we are just starting off with a bang. This is the big one.

Jillian Tholen: Yes. Yes, right. Well, I think it's pretty profound. The potential for it to be profound is there. And I think this has become such a bigger topic in the last several years because we've learned so much more about the potential to feel and perform better with proper nutrition. I think this can be a tricky area for some because it's not like we can't go for a run or finish a run or, you know, run a race if we aren't thinking about nutrition, if we're not prioritizing it, but we could just do so much better if we do. So I think the potential is just there for it to have a huge impact on how we feel and how we perform. And I'm sure we'll get into that in more detail for sure.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, for sure. think that the thing for me was I always felt like I didn't really know what I was doing. And so I just kind of faked my way. So what what do you think are the most common mistakes that people do with this? I can tell it's kind of like big. That's a big question.

Jillian Tholen: to think about that for a second. It's a big question. mean, I think probably the top mistake that runners make with their fueling and nutrition is they think about their nutrition needs through the lens of being a regular person, right? Like any nutrition guidance that they've heard from\... just public health advice or high school health class or even social media or doctors. That's meant for sedentary individuals. They're kind of taking that and applying it to their lives and it's, their needs are very different. So that's a really big one. And then it would be not appropriately prioritizing nutrition and hydration. So a lot of runners, whether they're high school athletes, collegiate athletes, you know, post-collegiate amateur midlife, you know, whatever age group it is, I think a lot of people just struggle to prioritize it. And they're just kind of like, I'm going to get my run in, but I'm not really thinking about my nutrition. one of my favorite phrases is, you don't have time to eat, you don't have time to train. And I think that can be a really big mindset shift for people, right? Like they're willing to make the time to get that run in, get the training in, but then they don't take the time to fuel beforehand or think about fueling afterwards or map out a plan for, you know, their intro run fueling or pack their lunch or any of that stuff, grocery shop, right? But all of that stuff has to be in my mind, I'm biased, right? This is what I do, but that's such a necessary component of training. So I think that, that in addition to just the generalized nutrition advice, is the biggest hurdle that I see people struggling with.

Carrie Tollefson: I do think that we have been taught for years, for probably the entire lifetime, about the workout. And we haven't really been taught about the fueling. I mean, that's what you do for a living, as you said, but like, you know, I just think back to all these years that I've been running and I don't know if I really, and I haven't probably sought out professional help like you, but even with our coaches. We don't talk a lot about fueling. probably because it's hard to educate, you know, people. You've done a lot of studying and you've done a lot of research on this. So it is hard, but that is something that is definitely missing, I feel like, in the sport world.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Well, and so much of, I think, we think about improving our performance as runners is the training, right? We think about the intervals and the miles and the threshold work and all that time we put into training. We think about that being what makes us better, but we don't actually get better during training, right? Training is a breakdown stimulus. Whether you're lifting weights or running or whatever, we get better when we're adapting to training. So that's the recovery. and the rest and the nutrition outside of training. That's where we give our bodies the resources to come back stronger, right? So we can like, repair our muscles, you know? And I think that's, that also can be a really helpful kind of light bulb for runners as like, that's why I need to actually prioritize my sleep and make sure that I'm meeting my nutrient needs and plan ahead, you know, do that kind of stuff outside of training. Because otherwise our bodies are just broken down. We're never going to get better and faster really or optimize, you know, reach our potential if we're not focused on the actual recovery when we're getting better, like allowing ourselves to get better. So that I find is a helpful reframe sometimes too.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And you know, if they listen to our first podcast, they would understand like the way that you break it down and the flexibility that you have with with your diet and how you plan your meals and things like that. So I think that's really important that you say it that way. Let's talk a little bit about calories. A lot of people talk in calories and it's sort of an easy like for me. I guess when I was kind of thinking about it as an athlete, the nutritionist that I saw always kind of wanted me to eat more. I was always a little bit under fueled and it wasn't that I didn't eat a lot at my meals, but during in between, I never, I never really thought I ran long enough to fuel during long runs and things like that. It was, it, just was kind of starting that really is aging me, but it really was just kind of starting that middle distance runners would actually fuel during. workouts on the track or whatever like they do now. I mean now it's a huge, huge component of how people train at the level that I used to train at. So let's talk a little bit about calories going into your system before you run and how long you should eat before and things like that and maybe how many calories because I do think as I was saying before I didn't finish my sentence. Calories is kind of an easy number. Now I know it's different for everybody so it's not like you're go run a seven minute pace so you have to run or you have to eat 100 calories before you run a seven minute pace type thing. But I feel like that's a number that athletes might be able to grasp or understand. So is that something that you emphasize or no?

Jillian Tholen: Right. Mm-hmm. Not in this context. When we're talking about what to prioritize or what to take in or any numbers around the before, during, and even after training, I'm not thinking in terms of calories. I'm thinking in terms of carbohydrate intake. Carbs are really what we should be prioritizing at that time anyways. so calories just don't feel relevant to me. It feels more helpful to focus on carbs, timing, that kind of thing. And maybe some electrolytes and, know, that kind of like, you know, sodium, those types of things as well. But really we're thinking about carbs rather than calories. To your point, calories is a whole can of worms that we could talk a lot about, but I just find it so much more helpful. And then I think too, you know, if a runner is someone who maybe has struggled with their relationship with calories at any time, It can be more helpful to think in terms of carbs or a macronutrient rather than a number of calories as well. Yeah, OK.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. And let me just like dig into that. Like, why do you think that? And why would someone that has maybe struggled with thinking in terms of how many calories, why would, why do they think it's better to talk carbs?

Jillian Tholen: Why do I think that? Calories is such a loaded, you kind of alluded to this, like it's used a lot in our society. There's a lot of misinformation about calories and a lot of misuse, I think, of that number in our world. And I it just tends to be more helpful to get away from that. whenever we can. Sometimes it's really helpful. Sometimes it's really important to have those conversations. And if you're working with a sports dietician or someone's going to help you really meet your needs, maybe that's going to be part of the conversation, assuming that's never been challenging for you in the past. But it can just be a really challenging thing to focus on for some people. And I find that things like carbs, well, grams of carbs, grams of protein, for example. grams of fiber, whatever, they're just more neutral. Calories can carry a lot more like emotion, I guess. Too many fear, know, too much. What is even too much? How much do I actually need? You know, comparisons. So there's just so many things I think that come up for people. But with carbs, because we've been talking now about carbs in the running community for a while now, and we're trying to kind of\...

Carrie Tollefson: Yes, I get that. I get that.

Jillian Tholen: encourage the runners to take in carbs and trying to emphasize their importance and the reasons why. I think I'm hopeful that we're getting this place where carbs also feel more neutral, even though I suppose carbs get a lot of, they get a lot of grief in our culture as well. But anyway, that's one of the reasons why I like to carbs instead of calories as well.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. I like it though. Yeah, I think it's great. it, whatever works for the individual, I guess, wherever they stay healthiest is smart. And that's why you're so good at your job. Cause you are like a coach that way where you just, you have to have different motivations for people to get them, you know, on the right path. So, okay, let's go back to that. So how many carbohydrates that do you think a runner should take in before a run?

Jillian Tholen: The one thing I'll say too, Carrie, that I should have mentioned earlier is that when we're thinking about the guidelines, like the actual sports nutrition guidelines, when it comes to pre-run or pre-workout fueling, those are also in carbohydrate grams. They're not written in terms of calories. So that's another thing that I think is really important to mention, right? Like that's also, these are the true guidelines are carbohydrates. So it's actually pretty simple. We think about, we want to think about two things when we're thinking about grams of carbs and pre-run nutrition. We think about timing, right? How long do I have before I'm gonna head out the door? And then we can kind of match that to the amount of carbs that we need. So what I mean by that, and that does make it helpful, but what I mean by that is, for example, if I have 30 minutes before I'm gonna actually start my run, I can shoot for 30 grams of carbs. If I have 60 minutes before I'm gonna, yeah, right? It's nice and simple. If 60 minutes before I'm gonna start my run, I can aim for more like 60 grams of carbs. And similar like 90 minutes before, know, maybe 60 to 90 grams of carbs. So that's kind of the framework for pre-run, which is really helpful. So that's what we think about for in terms of timing and grams of carbs. Would it be helpful to have some examples of what that could look like?

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. Hmm Okay. Yeah, I love that. I love examples. Like I was just thinking I was going for my run this morning. I was super hungry and I was going to put it off and I couldn't. I didn't have time and I grabbed because you you know the one thing that you've told me is to make sure you grab a handful of cereal or something before you go and I was starving. So I grabbed some peanut butter filled pretzels just a handful. I have no idea what I ate though. Like what do think that was? You don't know either. I should go get them. We can look at the back.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Something, yeah. Great. Great. Good job. Yeah. I don't know. I truly don't know. No. Well, and I mean, you know, if you have 15 minutes before you get out the door, you can also just do a handful of something, right? We never want to run fasted. We never want to train fasted for a variety of reasons, really the appetite, hormones, blood sugar that we could get into another time. But something's always better than nothing. So if you're, you have 10 minutes, you have 15 minutes, something is great. But if you do have a little bit more time and you can be thoughtful or even plan ahead, 30 grams, 30 minutes before, 60 grams, 60 minutes before, those are some pretty good basics. So 60 grams of carbs would be like a bagel. A bagel is usually around 60 grams. And obviously like you can put some cream cheese or something on it as well. Just make it tasty. But that's a really good example. Yes, we want to like our food. Or even 60 grams of carbs could also be like two slices of bread and a banana. For example, like 30 grams of carbs would be like a banana. Or

Carrie Tollefson: Yes, we always like to like our food. We like to like our food.

Jillian Tholen: A couple of big graham cracker sheets would be 30 grams or a really solid handful of pretzels or pretzel chips. Another way to get that pre-run carb in that can be really helpful could be just like a sports beverage, a drink like Gatorade, or I really like scratch hydration mix. That's one of my favorite go-tos. think\...

Carrie Tollefson: huh, I use that a lot. Okay. I haven't tried that yet.

Jillian Tholen: I think that one's like 20 grams of carbs, but that's really helpful if you get up and you want to get out the door and you know you need something. Putting a scoop of scratch or tailwind or anything like that, any of those hydration mixes with that contain carbohydrates as well into a glass and just shoot it like drinking it and you can head out the door. Like that's so easy on the digestive system. That's another nice hack for just like needing to get those carbs in.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. So yeah, you can drink them. And we talked about that in the last podcast, but it doesn't have to mean you have to chew them. You can drink your carbs.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Yes. Right. Yes. Yeah. A couple of packages of fruit snacks is another great option or the applesauce pouches some people like. Those are more like 20, 15 to 20 grams. So you might have to do a couple of those if you have a little bit more time, but those would just be a few more examples of like if you had a third 20 to 30 minutes before a run.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was just watching Caitlin Clark. She kind of had her flu game last week. I don't know if you saw that. And she was trying to get some carbs or something in and she tried to eat some applesauce, an applesauce packet. It ended up coming up because she was very sick. But nowadays even it's not just us endurance athletes. And I shouldn't say basketball players aren't endurance athletes. They're out there for multiple hours.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm, smart. no. A long time. Yeah, yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: So they are now, you can see them on the sidelines. They're getting at the professional level, at the high school level, all of them, they're getting stuff in, whether they're drinking certain drinks or they're eating something like that. It's just really interesting how far all the sports have come.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. I mean, the other thing I should mention too about when we're thinking about fueling before a run, we talk about carbs because that's our body's main source of energy. That's really the nutrient to prioritize. And we really want to focus on simple carbs. So easy to digest, right? Foods that are low also in things like fiber and protein and fat. Not because those things are bad, but just because all of those nutrients delay what's called gastric emptying. So those are going to make food sit in our stomach a little bit longer. When we head out the door to run, our blood flow leaves our digestive system and goes to our working muscles. So we don't really want food sitting in there. And that's why prioritizing simple carbohydrates and even foods that might be more processed, which this could be a whole other discussion as well, is more important and more helpful in this time window because we just don't want, we just. don't want a high fiber food taking a long time to digest, for example. That's gonna cause GI issues. So that's where your Pop Tarts, your bagels, your cereal are really great choices. Yes, goldfish crackers, pretzels, applesauce, those types of things are important. So I thought I should mention that too when I brought up some of those examples. That's why I mentioned some of the things I did.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Goldfish, all that stuff, yeah. Yeah. Well, and this is just, it's like so many light bulbs go off. Like, you know, I'm standing on the middle of a infield watching all of these world-class athletes eat and many of them are eating, you know, we talk about peanut butter and jelly all the time. It doesn't seem like it is the most quote unquote healthiest at times, but that's what all the athletes at every level eat. Goldfish. Exactly. You're talking about, you know, having different fruit snacks. I mean, it seems kind of like, is that?

Jillian Tholen: Yes! Sure. Tried and true. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Carrie Tollefson: for real? Like, is that what people\... But it is! And it is okay, and it's good for us. At times.

Jillian Tholen: Right. Yeah. I love that mention of that's what world-class athletes are eating. I think sometimes people need to hear that, you know?

Carrie Tollefson: They do. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Okay, let's get back into training then. When it comes to fueling during training sessions, should we always have some fuel during a run or is it only necessary for longer and harder sessions?

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, this is a great one. And you mentioned, Carrie, kind of years ago when you were running, this was just kind of starting to become a thing. And same, when I was running in college, we didn't fuel a single long run. Never. It was just never a conversation. We were running 16, 18 miles. I would never think about that now. So when I'm thinking about this question, should we always fuel? What duration do we need to be thinking about when we're starting to think about, do I take something with me? I typically say, I don't think about miles because everyone's pace is different. someone might run 10 miles in a certain time. Someone else might run 10 miles in a completely different time. So we want to more think about the amount of time we're out there. So I usually say anything over 60 to 70 minutes we want to fuel. And 60, I would say closer to 60 if you're going to add intensity. Because when we add intensity or you're doing intervals or threshold or something like that during your run, that also increases the use of glycogen, increases the carbohydrate need of that run. if you're doing, again, something that's 60 plus minutes and it does have intensity, I would definitely fuel that. Otherwise, if it's just an easier long run, maybe you could do 70 minutes as kind of like your cutoff, like, okay, now I should be fueling. The one thing I will say about this is that no run is too short to fuel. This is\... Something that I've been thinking a lot more about as because I think a lot about things like energy availability and the importance of just carbohydrates for recovery. If you are somebody who wants to bring gel along or some chews along for a 40 minute run or 45 minute run or a 30 minute run, I think you could definitely do that. There's no harm in that. It's not going to, you know, create a situation where you're all of sudden doing too much or eating too many carbohydrates. You potentially are just going to recover better. And this goes for any fueling during a training session. You're going to recover better. And you're also going to be working on that gut training and that gut tolerance, which is a big part of learning to fuel on those longer runs and also just preparing for any race situation where you would want to fuel. But anyway, you can fuel any run, honestly. But when we start to think about when we really, want to be fueling those runs, anything over 70 minutes. And that's because of We can store enough glycogen or that carbohydrate in our muscles for about usually 90 minutes of running. And we don't want to get to that point before we start fueling where we're out of glycogen, because that's that bonk that we feel and nobody wants to get there. We always want to be ahead of it. We always want to get ahead of it with fueling. So yeah, 60 to 70 minutes. No, it's hard to come back from too. It's really tough to like, even if you would take in nutrition at that time, it's tough. You don't want to be there.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. For sure, is not fun to bonk. Not fun at all. Did you remember when you ran your ultra or whatever out at Afton and it was a tough day, it was a hot day and you did kind of bonk? I was wondering, was it fueling?

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know even what I took in. I probably, think I had a handheld. I think I had a handheld with me because I remember tossing it and I think I had some scratch or something in that, but I probably didn't take anything else. I mean, it was, I have talked about this before. Mistakes were made at that race.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, which is almost great that it happens to you too. Even happens to the people that know how not to bonk. It happens. And two, our bodies are different at times. Like you don't know what's going on on that day. It could have been something else too that led to that. But it was just interesting to hear. I think you and I went for a walk or we were running or something and you talked about that and it was kind of a strange feeling to have that happen.

Jillian Tholen: yeah, 100%. huh. Yes, no one wants that. Mm-hmm.

Carrie Tollefson: I've had that happen at the end of a marathon too, where I thought I was seeing Jesus. I was like, I am walking into the pearly gates right now. Everything was like white and whatever.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. You're going to get like disoriented. Yes. Yes. I mean, hydration, as we, as I'm talking about my handheld, that's a whole other topic as well for hydration during a run. And do we carry it with us and how important is that too? But, yeah, you, we, it really pays off to think about this stuff before going on those long runs. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Really have that plan. I know, I know I'm learning this as I get older and also as I'm now hopefully helping the younger generation. One of the things I did want to ask and this is just a follow up of that question. When people are you know training for weight maintenance or weight loss is there when you're trying to help them if they are taking in fueling during a shorter run How do you factor that in? Or do you then say, you know what, we're not going to be taking in extra here during this run? Or is that just not a conversation for during activity?

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Yes, we, I, this might sound weird, but I kind of don't count the carbs that we're taking in during a run toward that daily total. We think about that as fueling, it's fueling, it's helping to fuel the work, right? But if we're, if we're really focused on weight loss or weight maintenance, we're actually gonna focus even harder on fueling training, like really, really fueling training really well, being very well fueled beforehand. fueling super well during, fueling really well afterwards to maximize that carbohydrate availability so that we don't start to see signs of reds or low energy availability even if we are at a calorie deficit maybe the rest of the day. So that feels like a really, really important thing that I think to your point, I think a lot of people would be like, well, that's an easy throw away. I just won't do that. But that's actually even more important in that case. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: okay. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I love that. Okay, good. That's a whole nother conversation. We had lots of them. I know that you've talked about a little bit of what we should use or what we could kind of use during, but give us just some fueling examples for during the middle of a 60 to 70 minute run or long.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, for sure. like types of fuel you would want to use? Well, there's so many, there's just so many options on the market to your point, right? Like there are drink mixes that have carbohydrates in them. There are chews, there are gels, there are, like you said, there are bars. Some people like to prefer real food. There are all different textures of gels, all different flavors of gels, right? So really there's two factors that I would

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, what would you do? What's your favorite thing now to recommend? Like gels, bars, drinks, what is\... Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: I would want to address with an athlete. One, what is your fueling goal? Right? Like how many carbs are you trying to take in per hour? And I know we're going to get to this later, but thinking about that and then thinking about how to get there, basically like what combination of products or what specific product do you want to use? How many grams of carbs does that have? How do we work that in? But then it's really about preference, right? Someone could recommend, I could recommend any gel that let's say I like, right? Say it's a, I don't know, black raspberry goo or something like that. And I could be working with an athlete who hates raspberry or really hates the texture of goo, for example. Just, there's just so many factors, right? Everyone has such different preferences. So they have to like it, right? It's already challenging to take things in on a run. If you don't like it, Absolutely not. So you have to want to take that in, right? And kind of at least somewhat enjoy the experience before you're going to even be motivated to do it. And that is one of the, I guess, of the benefits of having so many options in a way is that there are so many different textures and flavors and forms of nutrition out there.

Carrie Tollefson: Nope. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we don't want it coming up. We don't want to throw all this, hard work of putting it down and trying to keep it in there. So that's the big thing. think if sometimes people think, it's not a big deal to throw up. Well, think of what you lose when you threw up, throw up. So all these kids after races and things that I see like getting ready to I'm like, hold it in, try not to throw it up because there's so many nutrients in there. Yeah, so many nutrients. OK, let's get back to carbohydrates just a little bit. So.

Jillian Tholen: No. No, definitely not. Oof. Yeah. Mm-mm. No. Oh no. Yeah, anxiety. Right, right.

Carrie Tollefson: How many grams of carbohydrates should an athlete try to consume while fueling? Because you talked a little bit about easy math, right? 30 minutes before, 30 grams. 60 minutes before, 60 grams. But what do you think about during a run, how many carbohydrates should we try to get in?

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ideally, I'm trying to get any athlete who's running 70, 90 minutes plus up to at least 60 grams of carbs per hour. There's really great research that indicates that a lot of us, should be able to tolerate that based on gut tolerance. We can't always go from zero to 60. We can't always go right there. We often have to practice, but that's a very reasonable goal for most athletes. to shoot for 60 grams per hour. Yeah, 60 grams for 60 minutes. Technically, yeah, that's true. Of course, I don't know why I never thought of that. But yes, 60 grams an hour is kind of what I would hope to get everyone to at minimum. And again, that can take time. It can take a lot of working with how do we get there? Do we combine drink and food? Do we have the same product? do we do chews and gels or whatever, right? Like everyone has kind of a different formula, but we should be able to achieve that. And then beyond that, we can definitely go higher as well. Especially if you're going to be running for more than two and a half or three hours, then we do want to try to play around with those higher carb totals per hour, like upwards of 90-ish to 100 grams an hour if you can tolerate it. That is where gut tolerance becomes a little bit more iffy for a lot of people. So we really want to sure we're managing that as well. More isn't always better, especially if you're not tolerating it well. When people are s- on the bike, cyclists can often tolerate more carb per hour than runners just because they don't have to deal with the jostling. So that's another factor, right? Like what's your form of exercise? But yeah, generally baseline, if I can get people to 60 grams an hour, that's great. That is a really nice place to be.

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm. And like, what do you think of when you think of 60 grams of carbohydrates? Like what comes in mind right now for you? Is it goose? Is it two? Is it\... I know all of them are different.

Jillian Tholen: Well, it, yeah, it really depends on the type of nutrition you're using. I'm thinking of goo is usually around, it's like 22 ish grams per goo. So that you are probably looking at three per hour, which is like every 20 minutes you're taking one down. And if that feels like a lot, for example, maybe you do, maybe you have like a scratch hydration or tailwind in your bottle and you're combining two goo's with a bottle of tailwind or I'm sorry. maybe half a bottle of tailwind, however you mix it, right? So those are just some examples, but there are gels that are, like the carbs gel, I think is 50 grams of carbs. So you could be taking in one of those and then maybe you have something in your bottle, right? Or there are gels that are like 30 grams, right? So maybe you could go every 30 minutes with a 30 gram gel. So it really just depends on what you wanna kind of cobble together or the products that you wanna use.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Mm. Yeah, it is. There's so much out there though. So you really do have to read. You got and it's nice because I know that you do research a lot. You do practice some of these things. You've done long races. You've done short races. So you kind of know all of the things. But yeah, there's so much like some of them have caffeine. Some have electrolytes. Some have. Yeah. Yeah. What do you want us to focus on? Like when we're.

Jillian Tholen: It's a lot. Yeah. Right. Yes, that's another factor. Absolutely. There's so many things to consider. Right.

Carrie Tollefson: talking about carbohydrates, just straight up carbs? Or do you talk about caffeinated? Do you talk about ones with electrolytes? I know these are hard questions because you're like there's so many different factors. Like are you running a five-hour race? Are you running a half an hour race? Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: It really depends. Yeah, mean, it's annoying to keep saying it depends, but it always depends. I do hear from lot of athletes that they don't like caffeine because they tend to have more GI issues or they just don't like how it makes them feel. For others, it's so important to have a caffeinated gel at some specific time in their race to help them just feel that extra shot of energy. So that really varies. And so that just depends on the athlete, right? Like if somebody is interested in ingesting caffeine, we're gonna look at some of those gels. And usually it's not, like say someone's running a marathon, every gel typically isn't caffeinated. We're kind of doing a caffeinated gel strategically here and there, but we're not fully loading caffeine because we also don't wanna overdo that. That is not a good situation. Electrolytes are similar. I mean, it kind of depends on the athlete and maybe whether or not they're a salty sweater, for example, or what the conditions are going to be like, right? Grandma's marathon's coming up. That race is always humid. It's always hot. For somebody running grandma's, it might be a really different situation than someone who ran Boston, right? Where often the conditions are not as extreme in terms of heat and humidity. So maybe we're likely to train with a higher sodium gel or we're integrating a high sodium gel or high sodium fueling in with just your low sodium gels, right? And some gels have sodium and some don't. it's even, yeah. So it's, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of trial and error and trying to figure out what athletes like, but also integrating some specific characteristics. Like, are you a heavy sweater? Are you a salty sweater? Those types of things. We weren't, when we're talking about electrolytes in particular.

Carrie Tollefson: Right. Yeah. And that's why it's so important.

Jillian Tholen: Lots of individual variation and preference again.

Carrie Tollefson: Exactly. And I think that's what's so cool when I'm listening to you talk is like, just knowing that you're not just talking about someone's fuel plan. Like you can actually, you know, you are definitely someone that can coach even just endurance athletes, your husband coaches for a living. Like this is stuff that you live and breathe. And so it's really cool that you can be listening to somebody that you're working with that says, I am totally bonking at mile 18 of the marathon. and I, what do I do? Or I can't wait to get to that caffeine gel because that's what like mentally gets me to mile 21 because I know it's sitting there waiting for me. Like I just think it's so cool that you can relate to so many different, you know, athletes.

Jillian Tholen: It is definitely helpful to be an endurance athlete myself and to have made my own mistakes. That's for sure.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. And to not think we're crazy for like, you know, not liking certain things. I mean, you know, there are people that are win at all costs and they'll just suck it up and do whatever. But I think you too are like, no, we don't need to do that. We can find what we like.

Jillian Tholen: No. Right. No, I get it. Yes, yeah, absolutely, so important.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Okay, so this one was an interesting one. We both read through some of the questions and you were like, Carrie, I think this could be seriously its own episode. So we're going to talk about this just quickly and then we are going to have another episode on this. But many athletes think that the job is done once the workout is over. And we talk a lot about post-workout fueling. So what do you think we need to do once our workouts are done and without going on for 45 minutes about it? Just kind of a quick hit on that.

Jillian Tholen: Yes, this is a really important one. And I think it's one that a lot of people get wrong, again, because of social media and just kind of misinformation out there. But the first thing is, the quicker you can get some food in afterwards, the better. And it's pretty normal for appetite to be low after a run. That's a very normal response. If that's you, it doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It's normal. It also doesn't give you a pass to not. eat something or not fuel somehow. We just have to be a little more strategic. So our main priority within, I would say like 30 to 45 minutes of getting back from a run is carbohydrates. This is the thing that people get wrong. We think we hear we need protein for recovery. We got to prioritize protein after workouts. Protein is important, but Carbs are our first priority when we get back. Ideally, we're taking in some kind of mix of carbs and protein on the range of like a three to one ratio, maybe, you know, 45 to 60 grams of carbs and 20-ish grams of protein, but that's just one example. It could also be something a lot smaller. This is where chocolate milk is that kind of classic example and ideal option for post-run. Chocolate milk is higher in sugar than, you know, regular milk. We need that sugar for the carbohydrates and it's got just a little bit of protein. That's ideal. And because it's liquid, it's easy to get down. But really it's just focusing on something that's a three to one, four to one ratio of carbs to protein within like 30 to 45 minutes post run. If that's not a lot, again, that's okay. You have a bigger window to then get that full meal in. But if you can just get something in, that's really gonna help. It's really gonna help to optimize your recovery and optimize that restocking of the glycogen that you just depleted on your run. Our bodies don't need insulin to take up the carbohydrates that we take in in that window. And that's really important because really we can kind of take up even more, more efficiently and restock our muscle stores than we could at another time. So that's kind of the reason to prioritize those carbs right after. And that little bit of protein then just gives us a little boost and start that recovery and repair process as well.

Carrie Tollefson: So even for like parents out there that are, you know, worried about their kids and their sugar intake and things like that, like for instance, like Greer, who's 10, right? My little guy. When they play as hard as they do and they're outside in the heat and they're sweaty and whatever, I mean, it's important for them too. Like that's where chocolate milk should be like praised and say, yeah, let's have that because you're saying it's not just\...

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Huh? yeah, totally. Yes? Mm-hmm.

Carrie Tollefson: It's not just the milk that we need. We actually do need a little bit of that chocolate because it brings in other ingredients.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Right, we need the carbs. You need the sugar. It's really important. And that's a really great place for simple sugars as well, because we want it to be able to get into our bloodstream as quickly as possible through our digestive system, into our blood, into our muscles. I would, I mean, yeah, I would rather have somebody have fruit snacks than, you know, I don't know what a good example would be. Broccoli, for sure.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I do think that's important for us and that's maybe where we've gone, not wrong, but we just didn't know enough when I was little. You know, we, you didn't want to, you didn't want to encourage all this snacking all the time. It just wasn't how it was. It was meals, certain meals and not a lot in between. But you think of how hard these young kids are and a lot of them are working out now. I mean, they're not just going and running around the block. Like a lot of them are out.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, it's more serious.

Carrie Tollefson: They're batting, they're playing basketball, like they're doing hardcore sports because they want to be professional athletes, every single one of them. But I do think that's important for me as a mom to realize too, like if I'm going to come in and make sure that I'm getting some fueling and hydration within 30 minutes, maybe I should think about that at a younger age for my kids and have them continue on that journey as they get older.

Jillian Tholen: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Always sandwich your workouts with a snack at least.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay, okay. Tell me a little bit about, you know, what you feel like. I mean, I know that you and I are both in this kind of weird spot of life where our workouts haven't been the main priority, even though we love to work out, but we're not in a, you know, training for anything. We're not really getting ready for a race. So tell me what your feeling looks like right now.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I typically run in the morning. So if I can get up and have kind of a wake up snack, that's what I'll do. I don't usually get to run right after I eat. So I try to have something a little bit more substantial, kind of like I was talking about before. My go-to is usually a bowl of cereal at this point in life, which is my favorite. I love life. Maybe I've said that before, life cereal. So I'll have that. No, just, cinnamon life is what I've been eating. and then maybe like an hour, hour and a half later, I'm able to get out for my run.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. And do you add sugar to it or do you add something else? Just straight up life. Ooh, cinnamon life, okay.

Jillian Tholen: And then after my run, I'll have like a full breakfast pretty quickly. And I just try to do it even if my appetite's not great because that's kind of my window. And I know that if I don't get it in now, I'll be hungry later. And you you've got to get on with the rest of your day. So then I try to, I'm trying to think of what kind of my go-tos have been. I've been doing like a bagel with peanut butter and I really like yogurt. So I'll do yogurt and berries. That's my carbs, protein and color, that full performance plate that I go for. Um, but trying to get all those nutrients in, right? If it's kind of the flip side where I'm running later in the morning though, I will eat a little bit of something before I go. Kind of like you talked, like we talked about earlier. I'm trying to think of what are my go-tos. We have these, we have fig bars around. I like a package of fig bars before I go. We like those as pre-run or graham crackers are a big staple as well. I think those are really nice for pre-run. And then after I get back, again, I would do like a bigger breakfast.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love those. Us too. Mm-hmm.

Jillian Tholen: Or if I can't have breakfast right away, would have like a little bit of something. We often have chocolate milk around, so that's a pretty common one that I would get in. Or one Pop-Tart. I would do like one Pop-Tart and then eat my main meal later, because we're trying to keep those around for extra carbs as well.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. huh. Yeah, but I mean it sounds pretty easy. It's not really complicated stuff. I think that's where I've been pretty, I mean, I always feel bad like saying I'm, my diet is not so great right now. And you're always like, Kiri, there's always something we can find that's good. Like, you know, I like a Dr. Pepper. I like it after a run. It's the best. Like after I've been, yes. And I mean, you know, I maybe have a little too much of them, but.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, great. That's actually really helpful. Look at you getting those carbs in, right?

Carrie Tollefson: I do love that and I am one that will grab a handful of chips but I think every single time it's so funny you are in my ear a lot of the time and it's good it's always good like no there's something but I do think about what's what am I gonna do that is a little bit more healthier a little bit that's you know gonna fuel me more than just kind of make me feel like I got something in so I'm not as great right now with my planning but that is a goal for the summer That's what I wrote down on here. My goal is that I'm going to have my kids home this summer in a week and they're old enough now to help me prep a little bit more and do some better planning around our activities and things like that. So I might be hitting you up. Yeah, yeah. OK.

Jillian Tholen: That's a great call. Okay. Mm-hmm. A little planning and prep goes a long ways, honestly. It really does. Yeah. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Just like a few ideas, a few things you can prep ahead, figuring out your preferences and what works well is so, so helpful.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like I'm craving right now some protein balls and I know that that sounds like something that is, you know, you have to be really organized to do. It isn't really and those are fun for the kids to make. Yes, so we're going to do those. We're going to do those this week. I want to know how we can find you, how someone that's listening here at Rundot can actually be like, I want to work with Jillian or I just want to have a consultation with Jillian. Also, I want to know how they can find out more about

Jillian Tholen: No, yeah, they're so fast. Yeah, those are really quick.

Carrie Tollefson: the event here in Minnesota, if they are a Minnesota or Wisconsin or someone that's close that could come and come into the city for a little bit.

Jillian Tholen: Yes. Great question. So for one-on-one coaching to work with me to do a consult, you can just head to my website. It's JillianRD.com. And then I have all my services and all my resources on there for you. I'm on social media at Jillian.RD. If you want to get my vibe on Instagram, sometimes people find that helpful to just get a little bit more of my, like the kinds of things I like to talk about. Um, just. get a little bit more taste of what I'm like and what I talk with athletes about. And then for the event called the Fast and the Fueled, that page is also on my website. So that's linked on there. If you just go to my website, it's right at the top. You can click on it for more info and for registration and all of that. So website should be, give you everything that you need.

Carrie Tollefson: cool down question. You ready for it? This comes all the way from California. Florence is asking, she says, I'm hearing that collagen can make a big difference in ligament and tendon health. Sounds helpful for us runners. If collagen is something we should use or consider in working into our, is collagen something we should all consider working into our diet or is it for a specific population of runners?

Jillian Tholen: Yes. Yes, great question. I would file collagen under my list of can't hurt supplements. I don't think everyone needs to be taking it, but it can be helpful. There's particular utility to collagen in the context of a tendon or ligament injury, especially when we think about the timing of taking the supplement. So ideally it's something that's taken the collagen supplement with a source of vitamin C and some collagen supplements now include vitamin C. So that could be something to look for, but we want to take that collagen with the vitamin C prior to doing any rehab exercises for a tendon injury. That is again, in the context of an injury, but could all runners potentially benefit? Sure. I don't think that there's reason, I don't think that there's necessarily any contraindications to taking collagen. I would just make sure you look for a good source of it. That's kind of the thing with this type of supplement. Could it be helpful? Yes. Is it necessary? Not necessarily. Is it particularly helpful if you have maybe a chronic tendon or ligament injury? Maybe. So there's kind of a lot of like maybes here. But short answer to could it be helpful? Yeah, absolutely.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. So it's just kind of based on individual to individual as well.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, definitely. It could be helpful for anyone, particularly something I would actually recommend if you in the setting of a tendon or ligament injury.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay, interesting. Thank you so much, Jillian. Can't wait to have you back on the show and yeah, to continue to work on our fueling and hydration. It's so important and I love how you approach it. It's easy and simple yet super important. So thanks for getting after it.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Carrie.