Race Your First, Next, or Best 5K

RDP 037 - Race Your First, Next, or Best 5K

Carrie Tollefson: Welcome back, everybody, to the RunDot Podcast. Before we dive in, do us a quick favor — please hit subscribe wherever you're listening, and if you've got a minute, leave us a review, it genuinely helps other runners find the show. So thank you in advance for being a good friend of the podcast.

Today we're talking about one of the most common running events, and one that I love — the 5K. It's short enough to be brutal and long enough to punish bad pacing. So whether you're wanting to do your first 5K, or you're crossing the finish line wondering if you left something out there — because believe me, we've all done that — this episode is for you. Joining me today is Coach Brady Hoover. Brady coaches RunDot athletes ranging from first-time 5Kers all the way up to competitive age-group racers of all distances. He's both a coach and a great runner himself, and he spends a lot of time thinking about how to turn a good 5K into a great 5K. Brady, welcome back to the show.

Brady Hoover: It feels so good to be back, thanks for having me on, Carrie. I feel like it's been a hot minute — it's been a blur, I can't believe the kids are already back in school, I saw yours, you kicked 'em out, sent 'em to school. It's one thing after another, but it's all good.

Carrie: It has. How's your summer been?

Brady: I know.

Carrie: Yep, here we go. Well, if you don't know me, I'm Carrie Tollefson, I'm an Olympian, broadcaster, and your guide to the world of RunDot, and we treat each show like a good workout. We're gonna start with our warm-up question, settle into our main set conversation, and then wind things down by having our coaches answer an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff today, so let's get after it. All right, Brady, we're gonna do our warm-up question — what was your very first 5K, and how did it go?

Brady: Gosh, yeah, this takes me back. My dad got me into it — he seemed to get me into a lot of athletic troubles, 'cause it started with a 5K, and the rest is history. I didn't think back then I would be where I am today, all because he asked me to run this little 5K with him. I was living in Somerville at the time, Somerville, Massachusetts — there's a great event called the Jingle Bell 5K, still runs today, and it gets about — at the time it was about eight thousand people, it was really big in its day, now it gets about five thousand, Paul's semi-retired, he just puts on a couple of races, this being one of them. It was September of 2011, and my dad said, hey, there's a 5K in your town, do you wanna go run it? He told me about it, and I said, yeah, that sounds like a great idea, we're gonna — 'cause you got free Harpoon, Harpoon sponsored it and gave two kegs to about thirty different bars. So I said, yeah, let's go run a 5K and party like it was a marathon — sounds good to me, sign me up. I was just out of college at the time, and that was still a thing. So I started training for it — I didn't quite know what I was doing, I didn't really have a goal until I started getting closer to race day, and I said, you know, I wonder if I could break twenty minutes. So I set out to do that, dressed in a Santa suit, thinking if I broke twenty minutes maybe I would be one of those first couple of Santas to cross the finish line — top three Santas, top three elves, get a hundred bucks. Yeah, I was demoralized there, but I did run a 19:55, so I was happy with that. I'd been playing soccer, so I did have a good background in running — I was a midfielder, so I ran, I don't know, five to seven miles a game.

Carrie: You ran fast. That's amazing. I had the opportunity to run when I was five in my first 5K — so I was a little bit younger than you were. I grew up in this tiny little town in rural Minnesota of sixteen hundred people, so we probably had like a hundred people out there, not eight thousand like you. And I was running with my whole family — I think it was called the Uffda Days 5K, 'cause, you know, we're in Minnesota, so "uffda, ya, den" — that's what we say all the time, a lot of us are Norwegians out there in rural Minnesota. I started out super fast because I didn't know what I was doing, and I got way in front of the cop car who was leading us out to the country, and ended up turning around and having to get picked up by that cop car — they led us out to the turnaround point, it was an out-and-back, and then they were kind of like the sag wagon, they would pick everybody up or watch everyone in. And I had to walk — I was crying, I didn't like it at all. And then they picked me up. And then who'd have known I was gonna go on and represent the US at the Olympics in running. So those were good memories though — my sisters loved that, they got to beat me, they still talk about it now, my mom and dad. And I actually was sponsored a long time by Adidas, and I had on a little Adidas outfit at the time — so it was all kind of foreshadowing, if that's what you say.

Brady: It's funny how the world works in mysterious ways like that.

Carrie: I know, I know, it really was a fun memory. We have some great pictures — my dad has this big hair, and my mom has these big glasses on, she's carrying all the bags, she called herself the bag lady. Good times. But are you ready to get into our main set? Because I'm excited about this.

Brady: Let's do it.

Carrie: Okay, so let's start with the big question I know a lot of our listeners want answered. Do I really need a training plan for a 5K? Like, 3.1 miles — do you really need to train specifically for that race?

Brady: This has a couple of answers. Short answer, yes, you do. It's not as easy to run a 5K as one might think — it's 3.1 miles, which to some, that's my warm-up. To others, like coming from couch to 5K, that is a big run. For somebody who's a seasoned runner, maybe training for marathons — do they need a specific training plan for a 5K? It depends how they wanna do it. Do they want to go fast and run a PR? Then yes, they need a training plan. Are they just doing it as like a tune-up race for their marathon, where they're gonna run threshold? Then maybe they're already training and have that in the bank — I could go out and wing a 5K, I'm not gonna race it to my absolute potential because I'm not in that shape, I haven't trained that way. For a new runner, absolutely — a common thing with new runners is they just go out and start running, no walk breaks, I'm just gonna run as far as I can, I wanna cover a mile today, two miles today, and depending on their pace and how long that takes them, they can get themselves very quickly into overuse injuries. There is a process of taking somebody from the couch and getting them to the starting line of their first 5K, and that process generally takes eight to ten to twelve weeks, depending on the athlete, how quick they are, and what their history is. So yes, short answer, everybody should have a 5K training plan — it might look different for each individual, depending on where they're coming from.

Carrie: Yeah, I think beginners really are the ones that think I can just maybe go wing it, or they get even more so on the other side, where they think they need to put in so much training. There's definitely this — you have to figure it out, right? You can't — I just don't think you can go and wing a 5K, especially because I feel like your feet and your body, they get kind of fired up when you go from zero to sixty, and that's what a lot of first-timers do, I think — they get off the couch — I don't really like "couch to 5K," because we're not hanging out on the couch all the time, but I know that's kind of a popular saying — they get off the couch or out the door and they just start running, and a lot of times it's not necessarily that they can't get through it, it's that their body starts to get mad at them. And that's, for me, even when I've had time off, that's where I really need a coach or a plan to get me back out the door or get me started on a plan.

Brady: Yeah, totally agree there. Even coming from a soccer background, if I just went out with that background and ran a 5K, even if I ran it slow, that's three miles without stopping — 3.1 miles without stopping. Yeah, I would run five to seven miles, but there'd be a lot of breaks — I'd sprint, I would walk, I would stand there. To be consistently running for 3.1 miles, that's a lot of things happening with your connective tissue, your muscles, different loading patterns that the body — even coming from some other sport outside of running itself that involves running — everyone needs a plan in that aspect to negate some of those things, you know, shin splints, or something that comes up pretty common, plantar fasciitis, Achilles issues — these are some of the things that if you just go out and just run, can happen.

Carrie: Yeah, for sure. Tell me a little bit about how RunDot can be used to train for a 5K.

Brady: Yeah, great question. So you set up an account, and it could be used for an advanced athlete, an intermediate athlete, or someone just starting out of the gate. They set up their account on RunDot, and it's gonna ask them some questions — what's their running history, how much in the last fourteen days have they run — maybe they haven't run anything, so the short answer there would be zero. If they are intermediate or advanced, they'll put in what their current 5K time is, or their threshold running pace. If they don't know, there's an AI in there that's gonna ask them some clarifying questions to kind of group them in a bucket so it can start to deliver a training plan. For that novice runner, very early on in running, their runs will be short, and a lot of those will be at maybe a twelve-minute, thirteen-minute mile pace, so it might be a run-walk. But the important thing is, within a week or so of starting up as a new runner, there is a threshold test, a running test, to set up training zones — and it's very important not to skip it, even if you have to walk during it, right, that is the purpose. You have 12 minutes to cover essentially as much ground as you can, and then there's gonna be some walk breaks in that, and all of that gets factored into setting up some training zones — which is probably something a new 5K runner wouldn't know. But you have recovery pace, very easy running pace, comfortably uncomfortable pace, fast pace, and — my gosh, I don't know if I can hang on — pace. And that is a scary pace.

Carrie: And that is a scary pace, for sure.

Brady: Yes. And that could be 5K pace, depending on your training, or slightly faster. But those intervals are brief. And what you're gonna see coming on is if you're gonna have some volume preferences, it's gonna ask you how often do you want to run — three days a week, two days a week, five days a week, six days a week — and then it's gonna start setting up a training plan based on those preferences, where you'll have some very easy days, which someone starting out running might be a run-walk on those easy days, and then you'll have some days where you'll have specific paces, based on when you set up your account and did that 12-minute test, that you'll want to maintain. Some of that might be walking pace, where your zone two could be walking pace depending on your ability and where you're coming from. And then your zone three might be your interval pace, or your zone four, where you'll be there for brief periods of time and then back to walking. So it does a good job at catering to the athlete to meet them where they're at.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that's the big thing — RunDot will help you along, with maybe a coach if you decide to hire one alongside RunDot, meet you where you're at, and not just give you this cookie-cutter plan.

Brady: Yeah, and when an athlete sets up an account, there's some educational emails — if I introduce them to RunDot, I say, hey, over the next couple weeks you'll get some emails, very important that you read those, 'cause it's gonna explain the training and what you need to do and the why behind it.

Carrie: Yeah, can we just kind of break that down a little bit? You touched on how each runner would go through that, but let's walk through it week to week a little bit more, if you can. You mentioned some of the paces, some of the things we might do — let's just go through it a little bit.

Brady: Sure, where do you want to start?

Carrie: I think you should start with a beginner — walk-run intervals. We haven't talked a lot about that — you said yeah, some people will walk, but that's actually a big thing, walk-run intervals is very common and it's actually a recommended method for a lot of people.

Brady: Yeah, so what that's going to do, and the why behind it — coming from, say, not a running background where you're consistently running — just use the soccer player for example, they can handle running, but there's some conditioning that happened, and I remember in high school sports, before our actual practices we had conditioning practices, and I had a lot of issue with shin splints — I'd been playing soccer all summer for fun, but not, you know, go out and run a mile, run six laps around the soccer field, something like that. Wow, it's like we should have had some pre-conditioning before we had the conditioning, doing some run-walk stuff. So that's where RunDot's gonna start that athlete — they're gonna be classified as probably a developing athlete, where they're going to get a scaled-down training plan, but they're not gonna see too many intervals — a lot of their stuff is gonna be run-walk focus, very easy. And then their harder days, their quality days where they're gonna do an interval, will be short and brief, where an advanced athlete might get six of those intervals, that starter athlete, that beginner athlete, might see one on that quality day, on that speed day, where they're actually trying to maintain a specific pace. On those run-walk days, it won't be a specific pace — it'll be more looking at your heart rate, it's gonna guide you by heart rate — here's what you want to keep your heart rate at, and within that heart rate zone, especially the novice runner, they're gonna start running, they'll run about two minutes, even if they're running really easy, their heart rate's gonna start to cross that threshold — their watch, because the workouts push to their watch, will beep at them, tell them they're outside of range, now they gotta slow down. The quickest way to get that heart rate back into range is to slow down, or quicker would be to start walking. So it'll mention within the training it prescribes how to tackle that easy run day — it'll say something like, practice run-walking — I forget the exact lingo that's in the workouts, but there's good specific instructions. There's also running drills that will help benefit their running mechanics, assigned to them as well.

Carrie: And they're fun, the running drills are always fun — it's like being a kid again. Talk a little bit about the foundation program you guys have at RunDot.

Brady: Yep, so foundation — that's kind of the development phase, I would call it. The goal of RunDot in that foundational phase is to get the athlete stronger and faster in their short game, to prepare them for a 5K. If you don't have an event on your calendar yet, but you want to start running because you know eventually, maybe in three, four, five months from now, there is a 5K, that's essentially what it's training you for in that foundation — it's taking you from a starting point and trying to develop your speed over time to get you ready for that 5K. So when you do put in that 5K — even if you kind of didn't put a race in there, you don't realize it, but you're already training towards it, because that's what the system is designed to do, so that when you decide to take on that race, you have it. Or you put in that race and it's eight weeks away — well then the whole periodization works backwards from there. Okay, here's our end point, now we gotta put our starting point, we've got so many weeks to get that athlete to the point where they could run it, and then RaceX is gonna tell them a target pace they could hold, based on their training — because that's another thing that's hard for new runners, how do I pace this? I don't wanna go out too fast and positive-split, have to walk later on. I don't wanna go out too slow and leave some potential on the table — but sometimes that's a great strategy, to start out slow and take it half-mile by half-mile, mile by mile, or divide it in half at the mile-and-a-half mark, see how I feel. But RaceX tells you, this is your potential — sometimes it's a scary number, but if they've been following the training, they should be able to do that within a few seconds, and it's pretty dead-on, as long as you're doing your assessments and following the training, and your training execution score is 76 or better — it's pretty on point. And I've coached groups for say, a half marathon, and it's their first half — here's what RaceX says.

Carrie: Well, it's okay — I mean I think the next thing you're talking about is making sure you're staying up at your —

Brady: And I'd look at their training, great, you did excellent on your training, you could absolutely go for this. Okay, maybe that number seems really fast — there's nothing wrong with holding back, especially that first mile. You know what your potential is and where your ceiling might be for that 5K, so let's drop the pace 10, 5, 15 seconds per mile on that first mile, settle in, and you'll see — okay, I got adrenaline on my side, I actually feel really good, I'm ready to take off, and you know what number not to cross at that point.

Carrie: Yeah, they're really learning about themselves — and that's what I think is easy, RunDot kind of takes the thought out of it. If you are a little nervous about training for a 5K, or you're new to it, RunDot makes it easy that way, and then if you hire someone like Brady or someone else on the team to help explain it a little bit more, it's really nice. But the experienced runner — like I've been running my whole life, and I've been training at the highest level with some of the best coaches — I still get confused, I still go back and think, now should I be doing this, or maybe I can add in this little session here, and then things backfire — like we all are constantly learning, even if you're new to this, even the best of the best are still learning how to handle our bodies and how to push them. So thinking of experienced runners, Brady, that are training and listening to this, that are trying to figure out how to run that 5K — what are they doing differently with RunDot than the beginner runner? Like, they just have more sessions that maybe have a little bit more to them, or what would you say? How do you explain that?

Brady: Yeah, so that more advanced or intermediate runner that's already established, they're training for speed, they're training for performance. So what the plan's gonna do is throw some more quality sessions at them, some harder sessions. We can talk in terms of levels — whereas that beginner runner, let's talk on a ten-point scale — that beginner runner, it depends on age too, right, if they're older and a beginner, their starting level might be a little bit lower, whereas if they're eighteen, they can handle a few more repetitions of hard running after some consistency and time. So that beginner runner might see a workout that's a level one or two in their buildup for the 5K, and the advanced runner, on that same speed session day, is gonna get a higher level — more repetitions. So they might see, let's take fartlek for instance, the beginner runner might see three by three minutes fartlek, and the advanced runner might see as many as ten, maybe twelve, by three-minute intervals. So that's a lot of similar periodization, but a difference, right, because this athlete's been running for five, five to ten years — maybe they're younger, maybe older, but their connective tissue can handle it, they've prepared, they've loaded that connective tissue in those patterns so they can handle it. Now here's the caveat — you take time off. I was used to running forty-five minutes a day every time I went for a session, and I took a month off — things got busy, life got busy — and then those athletes say, well, all of a sudden RunDot scaled down my runs to twenty-five, twenty minutes, what is going on? No, I'm just gonna go out and run forty-five minutes because that's what they want to do. Don't do it. You and I have both done that, and guess what happens? Shin splints, all those overuse injuries.

Carrie: Don't do it, don't do it. Yes. My feet — I just think of my feet all the time, they get so — the plantar fasciitis, do not wake it up, just keep it calm, people.

Brady: Yes, the muscles can handle it, right — it's the connective tissues, the ligaments, the tendons that get cranky, and the muscles will just be sore for a day. It's everything else that's where you get into trouble.

Carrie: Let's talk about some of those runners that maybe either undertrain, because they're scared of that speed work — like you were talking about, that scary pace that we get to, maybe towards that 5K pace. Because a 5K, when you do it right, it hurts the entire way — but it's a good hurt, right, it's something that brings us back for it, that's why I ran it all the time. But also there's times where we overtrain, because we're following a plan that maybe didn't start where our fitness was — it might just throw you back into it, because you might throw yourself back into a plan that you've done before. I think RunDot is a little bit better that way, because it meets us where we need to be met. But when you do just a regular human-written plan, it's a little bit like, okay, here we go, we can go do those 10 by three-minute-ers without anything behind us. So I want to talk a little bit about what we do there.

Brady: Yeah, and that's where testing is important — because if, say, I was that runner that took a month off, and I went out and ran an eighteen-minute 5K, let's say, and then come back, well am I still in that kind of condition to maintain those paces, to sustain that eighteen-minute 5K? Probably not. If I took a month off and went all out, maybe I'd lose twenty, thirty seconds, running 18:25, 18:30, let's say — which then means if I was just to start back up without doing that initial assessment after a lapse in time, then my training zones are now incorrect. We could be overtraining, right — what used to be our zone four pace is now our zone five pace. If we don't put that into the system, well now we're at a point — and why doesn't RunDot do this automatically? Well, everyone's loss of fitness is going to decline differently. Some might not miss a beat — they ran an 18, then ran an 18:05. Others might lose thirty seconds — I know I would lose a lot if I stopped — and you're gonna fall somewhere in between.

Carrie: Yeah. I wanna talk about speed work — I think a lot of people get nervous when they hear the word "speed." Even I do — I'm just kinda running for fun right now, I raced a lot for many years, had very specific training for many years, ran twice a day, ran a hundred miles a week — sometimes you just gotta run and have some fun with it, and that's where I'm at, and I'm okay with it right now. But speed work also kind of gets labeled as just for the people who have been running forever, for experienced runners — and that's not really the case. Even our newbies will do some speed work.

Brady: Absolutely, that's because the body has more than one energy system. If you're just constantly going at an easy pace, we're only developing our aerobic system — we haven't even touched into our anaerobic system, or aerobic capacity, where we're running at paces designed to increase our VO2 max, or another way to put it, how much oxygen your body can consume, turn into energy, and transport to your working muscles. So it's important to train different paces for that very reason — otherwise you're leaving potential out there. So the reason even a beginner would see a little bit of speed work is to hit those other energy systems, and also, when you're running a little faster, or doing things like strides, you're working on running mechanics. Someone may not look so well running — we see it when we drive down the road, they're running at a really slow pace and their stride length is short, it looks like —

Carrie: Yeah, they're going up and down rather than forward.

Brady: Yep, and when I do my zone two days, I kinda wanna put a sign on my front and back — zone two today, right — so everybody knows.

Carrie: Yeah, we need to make t-shirts that say what zone we're in — leave us alone, we're in zone two.

Brady: But as you increase the pace, your stride length lengthens, and you could take somebody — I've looked at runner running mechanics — and somebody at an easy pace, if they increase the pace a little bit, their running mechanics can look a little bit better, they just can't sustain that for a super long period of time. So not only from a cardiovascular standpoint, but from a mechanical standpoint, that speed work's important too — it's strengthening our musculoskeletal system as well.

Carrie: Yeah, for sure. When you think of speed work, what's the first workout that comes to mind?

Brady: On the track — 800s, 1200s, 800s, four-minute intervals. I think of four-minute intervals as that gold standard for targeting aerobic capacity, or VO2 max, to work on that oxygen delivery. Super high stress, so you don't do that every single week — but that's what comes to mind with speed work, we're gonna go fast, we're gonna get really uncomfortable, it's gonna be brief. Those first few minutes won't be so bad, that second-to-third minute, okay, that'll be kinda terrible, that third-to-fourth minute, okay, I'm just gonna hang on. But I got a nice long recovery after that, so it's worth the work.

Carrie: Yeah, and you know what's the best thing? When it's done, you totally feel like a rock star. I mean it is hard, no doubt about it — usually the first couple are like, okay, that was like a toothache, didn't really love the feeling but I got through it. Third one, fourth one, however many you're doing — I always think of five-by-800 when I'm doing something specific for a 5K, that was kind of a typical workout for me, and I would try to hit about race pace, maybe a little quicker on some of them, and usually by three I was like, not really loving this, and by four I'm like, my gosh, I'm scared, I don't know if I can do another one. And then I go to five and I'm getting through it and I'm like, I got this. And then afterwards I'm like, I just rocked that thing — there's a lot of confidence that comes with being able to do the speed work and build that speed work up, so you have more in the bank every single time you do it.

Brady: My question to you is — after you did one of those intervals, were you rewarded with a nice long rest period for that next one? Maybe Yasso style, like if it took two and a half minutes to cover 800, then you get to do whatever you want for two and a half minutes — walk, slow jog — as long as you were ready for that next one, right?

Carrie: Yes, yeah. And there's times when you're not sure you're ready for it, but you work yourself into it. Like you said, the first however many laps you're getting out there — but for me, those 800s, it'd be like, okay, I'd get into that first 200 meters of the first 400, and I'd be like, okay, settle down. Then the second 200 meters of the first 400, I'd get into my rhythm. Then the third 200, I'd have to focus on pushing and keeping the pace up. And then the last 200 is just like, get through it. There's different ways, mentally, we can — whether you're a beginner or experienced — break those workouts down and get through it. And I guarantee you, we talk about this all the time, the life lessons that we learn — but I really think the 5K, for me, I learned so much about myself. I learned how to dig deep, I learned how to focus, I learned how to dream big. All of those things were so — I guess I needed to be able to do it, it was crucial that I had to do it in the workouts to be able to perform when I wanted to in the race.

Brady: Yeah, a hundred percent, and those things aren't things you can just teach somebody or talk about — you actually have to get out there and do the work, so that you know you can. When you get to that point where you're running your first 5K, and you're like, okay, it's hurting a little bit, I'm two miles in and I still got a whole mile to go — but wait, I've been in this pain cave before, a couple weeks ago, and my volume was a little higher, I wasn't tapered, I was there and I pushed through and did it — I can hang on. And you're just breaking it down — well, let me just get to that mailbox, and then I'll give myself a walk break, and you kinda trick yourself, I'm not really gonna walk, I'm gonna go to the 7-Eleven on the corner, and then maybe I'll walk, and you just keep moving that carrot, hanging on.

Carrie: Yeah. It's true, I mean I kind of get fired up thinking about it that way, and when you do those hard sessions, like you said, that's what during the middle of the race you go back to and think about — okay, I've been in this pain before. Okay, we're talking about doing the hardest type of training during this 5K build, and that's the speed work, obviously — that's always the hard days of the build. But the rest days, it's almost like your reward, and a lot of people are scared of rest days, but I can remember being in the thick of it thinking, I can't wait to get to my day off. Or sometimes as a pro, I remember, sometimes I didn't get a day off that week, but I'd have an easy, easy day. And so those rest days are so, so important, no matter what level you're at.

Brady: Yeah, they are, and rest isn't just rest, sit on the couch and rest — it could be going for a walk with the kids, going on a scooter ride, now that the fall weather's here, that's after dinner, we're going out and that might be my only activity — I'll do an extra walk with the dog, walk with my body, do some yoga, some stretching, some foam rolling — we could do things with that rest day, so that we're not actually resting, we're just preparing our bodies to be in a better place for that next day.

Carrie: Yeah, yeah, you said it — a rest day isn't necessarily just a day of zero, our bodies are really working still, whether they're just recovering or trying to move through and get the blood flow going and do whatever — it's an important day.

Brady: Yeah, mobility work is a great thing to do on your rest day, and that might involve a running drill or two, and not an act of running. It might be some that your coach gives you suggestions on, or you can Google "runner's mobility work," and there's some great general workouts, general mobility things they can do to treat their bodies kindly, and then they don't feel like, I'm not getting a training day — wait, I'm doing something that's gentle on my body but good for my body, and that's gonna, in turn, better my run.

Carrie: Yeah, yep, I agree. How about this training misconception — if I'm not sore, the workout didn't count?

Brady: You didn't push hard enough — that would probably apply to those easy days, right, those easier running days where it's like, I don't even feel like I did — I barely broke a sweat, I don't feel like I did anything. Good, that's how you should feel on those days, because a day or two days later you're gonna do something hard, and it's gonna leave you knowing you did something. You might not necessarily be sore the next day or later that day, but you know you did something and you feel it. But don't be chasing that — and that's a very common misconception with new runners, that they need to feel some level of discomfort in a workout, and they feel that if I don't get that level of discomfort, well I'm not doing things to better my running — when actually, no, you are. You're getting more efficient at clearing lactic acid when you're running at the easier paces, you're strengthening your aerobic system, which anything over like 200 meters is mostly aerobic, even though you're running at an anaerobic pace — that aerobic system is so, so important. And on a 5K, it gives you almost — it's like you feel, when you've tapered and done your training right, that you have this extra gear you didn't know you had, that you can then tap into on race day. It's not there during training, because you're in a state of fatigue and doing hard workouts, but when you're fresh and tapered, you start out at that pace and you're like, I have an extra kick in me. That's you wouldn't have that without training the aerobic system.

Carrie: Yeah, all these things — the aerobic system and the neuromuscular — all these words that I love. But I wanna talk a little bit now about another misconception — that you need to have everything in order to be a good runner and a good 5K athlete — so gear, watches, knowing all the data, bicarb, all these words again, that experienced runners or maybe runners that have been in the sport or follow it a little bit closer might know, or be interested in. But you don't need to have all that stuff, do you?

Brady: No, just a pair of running shoes and comfortable clothing. And yeah, a heart rate monitor would be nice. If I was to say one piece of equipment — heart rate monitor, so you know where your heart's at. With RunDot, to run pace-, interval-paced workouts, all you need is your phone — everyone's got a phone, you don't need a fancy Garmin watch, I'd say phone first and foremost. But then heart rate would be that first thing I would purchase. I don't know if the newer phones have a heart rate monitor you could put your finger on and get your heart rate, but without that heart rate monitor, you don't really know when you're in that true aerobic, we'll call it zone two. Matt Bach and I talked about this on a TriDot podcast — if you were to take a heart rate monitor away from an athlete and they go out for a run — chances are, if you're looking at their heart rate, they're gonna be in zone three, because they're looking for that slight little discomfort, not by much, they might be a couple beats over. So I really harp on a heart rate monitor being a must.

Carrie: I think zone three is so easy for so many of us, because even though we're talking and it's a conversational pace, I think we're all excited when we're out there getting a workout in, especially with someone else. For me, I kinda end up hammering things, because it's so beautiful out and I'm running with a friend, talking about everything — I always end up running too hard.

Brady: Yes, same here — if I'm not paying attention on my zone two days, and my heart rate in zone two is 148, when I get to 150, 151, my run actually feels easier — why is that? The pace feels easier — why is that? Because now we're starting to tap in and utilize a second energy system, so now we're using two — of course it's gonna feel slightly easier.

Carrie: Oh my goodness, there's so many things. Well, okay, so we've talked a lot about training and how RunDot can help us debunk or overcome some of those misconceptions of preparing for a 5K. But I want to talk about race week now, because I think that's where a lot of 5K performances are won or lost. You mentioned a little bit about tapering, but also planning for the race and getting into the right mindset, which I think you and I also really got into when talking about doing those speed sessions, making sure we're confident with our rest days. There's a lot that goes into running a good 5K.

Brady: Yeah. And running a good 5K, it's not a test you can cram it all in at the end — you can make or break your race during that last week into the race. RunDot does a good job at prescribing, based on what the athlete wants to do, how many sessions a week — it's really well balanced. Say an athlete wants to run four days a week — on that race week, they're gonna see two very short, easy runs, and then they'll get some interval runs, and that scares a lot of new runners too.

Carrie: And you can tell RunDot that — that's the cool thing, Brady, sorry to interrupt, but you can kind of tell RunDot what you sort of want to do — you can say I'm a six-day-a-week runner or whatever, and it kind of just helps you with your daily living and doesn't take away from your life.

Brady: Yeah, and that six-day-a-week runner — I'm glad you brought that up — because on race week they're not gonna see six runs, it's gonna reduce the amount of sessions to what's absolutely critical for your best success on race day. A lot of new runners — I've worked with, I've done some couch-to-5K, when I was doing personal training at Cedardale, we did two of those — and a lot of them were like, why am I doing — why are you assigning speed work and hard days on race week, I thought I was supposed to taper and get fresh. The reason is you want to stay what I call "stay sharp," right — you don't want a week to go by without your body seeing a pace you plan on running on race day. On race week, those harder sessions are short, brief — it's two, three minutes, you're starting out at zone two, and you're gonna do a three-minute progression up to race pace, just to get the heart and lungs going, the mechanics going, and then you're gonna rest. You might do two, three, six repeats of that, depending on the type of runner you are and how quick you are. You'll see two of those sessions on race week — the first one earlier on, with a little bit longer one, shorter and sweeter as you get close to race — maybe there's an easy run before the race, depending on your settings — and then you're gonna go out and race, and you're gonna feel great. You're not gonna pick up the pace — if you've done those intervals, you won't feel flat, like I don't have that extra gear to push, what is going on, I feel like I got a speed limiter on me and can't break through it — that's because I didn't do my prep work, I just took the week super easy and then expected to race hard, where the body's like, hey, it's been a week since I've seen this, what are you putting me through?

Carrie: Right, right, wake up. Well, I think it's important to mention that even race day, before you're getting ready for the race, you have to have that race plan, but you also have to kind of — I always think, whether you're walking, run-walking, or running the entire way, it's really smart to do that warm-up before the race, to spike that heart rate just a little bit with some strides, or if you're in a corral doing some high knees, kick-butts, just to get your heart rate beating a little bit, because we do ultimately always hear that gun go off and we're excited from the very beginning, so your heart rate will spike right away.

Brady: Yeah, it's good to get it up prior to — and it's like, why would I — I'm racing a 5K, I only have so much time at this pace, why would I warm up fifteen, twenty minutes before at a pace that's that fast, even if it's brief — that's gonna take — it actually doesn't, it turns on some of those energy systems that otherwise would be turned on later in the race. I've done this before — I've had a cold, running late, started the 5K, only had a great first mile, and then the pace just drops, right — heart stays elevated but the pace drops, it's like what's going on, effort stays the same. Third mile comes around, okay, effort's the same but pace skyrockets again, right — our body's, you gotta do that warm-up to turn on those systems so you can clear lactic acid better, otherwise it's gonna pool and it's gonna slow you down. The shorter the race, the longer the warm-up should actually be, 'cause you're at an intense pace. That's one piece of advice I like to give athletes — the shorter your race, if you're doing a 5K, the longer the warm-up. You're doing a marathon, well, you're gonna start out at a pretty comfortable pace — yes, you still need a long warm-up, but it's a little bit different.

Carrie: Not as intense — I think of a little bit of intensity before the gun goes off as smart. Whether it's, I parked a half mile too far away, so I gotta get a fast, brisk walk or a good jog to get there, and then do those high knees, kick-butts, a little bit of strides — that's great. I wanna about RaceX a little bit with RunDot — can you explain that to us?

Brady: Yeah, so RunDot's got two sides of the platform — I like to say you've got your training side and your racing side. RaceX is going to tell you, based on your training and where your fitness is today, this is what we can do on race day — we have a target pace, right. When we first put in that race, that target pace may not be where we are today — it's often gonna be slightly faster, because we have lots and lots of data on athletes similar to other athletes coming in. We can say, based on all the data we've had to crunch and look at, we know that this athlete is twelve weeks out from this 5K, and over the next twelve weeks, the pattern we've seen from millions of data points is we can expect this athlete's 5K pace to improve by about 30 seconds from where they are today, right — and that's going to happen with consistency, doing the right training, sticking to that execution. So yes, that does mean for that 45-minute runner who's taking some time off, they might start at 25 minutes — you don't want to over-condition your body. So you can see where you are, and then if you miss some training and stuff, that number is gonna shift. It's also looking at historical data on weather — this time of year, where you're from, where I'm from, the mornings are glorious, beautiful, cooler — okay great, I can race at a faster pace than if it was 90 degrees. Say we're doing a summer 5K — maybe those newer runners don't say I'll train through anything, rains, I'll get out there and go — but maybe those people that want to do their first 5K, it's gonna be in the warmer weather, and then they get to race day and it's hotter than what they've been training in — okay great, how do I pace this? I can't pace the same way, because now my body's trying to cool, I'm sweating a little more — what was my actual race pace when it was 60 degrees out might actually be the high end of zone five into zone six, depending on the temperature. So RaceX is taking that into account.

Carrie: That's cool — like it even knows sort of the race course potentially.

Brady: It can. You'll put in the location of the race, the town it's in, and it's very important to put in that start time — does the race start at 7 a.m., some 5Ks don't start until 11 a.m. There's one in Cohasset, Massachusetts that doesn't start till 1 p.m. — and that's like two weeks before Boston, so I don't do that one anymore — but a 1 p.m. start, it's like, well, in April it's 50 degrees in the morning, by the afternoon it could be 70 — well, how should I pace this? That environment can change. So that's what RaceX is looking at, saying, it's gonna be 75 degrees, instead of running 9-minute miles, you should actually run 9:10s, because it's gonna be 75 degrees instead of 60. So it takes that guesswork out — well, it's a hot day, or you're training in the middle of summer and all of a sudden get a cooler weather day, like a nice crisp morning, and it's like now I can actually run faster than I've been training, because it's a cooler environment and my internal temperature isn't going to increase as much, I won't sweat as much — all of those things that go into executing a good race. So that's what RaceX is doing. Getting to the course part — a lot of race directors on their website now put in the course map, sometimes as a Strava file, sometimes a MapMyRun, RideWithGPS or RunWithGPS file — there's a file there, so you can see the course. You can actually download that file from the race site and upload it to RunDot. At first, RunDot was assuming the course was flat, but turns out this 5K has 300 feet of elevation gain — well, that's gonna affect your time by maybe fifteen, twenty seconds, because you're not gonna be able to run a 9-minute mile uphill on a 3% grade as easily as if it was on flat ground — you're gonna burn a match, you might be in zone six running up that hill, and then when you get to the top you may not need to walk or slow down quite a bit and kind of miss the bark. So that's another feature — it's gonna analyze the course, tell you how to run those uphills and downhills as well as the flats. So 5K race stalls usually give you three paces — uphill pace, flat pace, downhill pace, and RaceX gives you the same.

Carrie: Okay, so when you are talking to your athletes about RunDot, do you tell them to look at RaceX the day before, the morning of, the week before — what are you telling them, how are they using RaceX?

Brady: So they put in their race first, and it's like — check it once every week when you're twelve weeks out. When you're that far out, you don't have to be checking it all that often. As you get closer to race day, it's helpful to check it. Say we're four weeks out — you're still gonna have some of those zone five workouts, those interval runs, they're usually slightly faster than 5K pace, so you can see what RunDot wants you to do on the training side, but you can actually see what your RaceX time is, what RunDot wants you to hold for the race, and go, okay, my range on this workout is anywhere from an 8:30 to a 9-minute mile. Let's say my zone five, where RaceX might say that target pace is 8:45, and RaceX might have them pacing 8:50 — then they go, well, we're four weeks out, maybe I'm gonna take this at race pace, instead of running 8:45s I'm gonna run — where it wants me to run 8:55s, that's what I'm gonna do today. I'm still within zone, but I want to start getting a feel for this pace that I'm gonna do in four weeks on race day.

Carrie: I see. And on race day, I'm digging into this — does RaceX come into play? Are athletes watching their RunDot app? Are you saying, nope, turn it off and just run? What are you doing?

Brady: Good question. So ten days out from the race, RaceX is gonna start pulling in what the actual temperature's gonna be on race day. Every couple of days, it's wise to get in there and check, because temperature predictions could go up, could go down. Don't drive yourself crazy — we as marathon runners do this all the time, we're checking the weather, checking RaceX three times a day — my gosh, my paces, I thought I was gonna run a PR, now I'm not because it's gonna be warmer — and then they wake up the next day, now it's gonna be colder, I'm gonna get that PR, I can't wait.

Carrie: We're nuts, let's just say it, we're all nuts.

Brady: But on race day, really important, in the morning, look and see — usually the day before, the weather's pretty locked in, maybe you get a weather system that comes out of nowhere, here in New England that can happen — you're up by the lakes, that weather can just roll in out of nowhere — but usually the night before or the day before, the weather's pretty locked in, you can look and say, okay, what does it want me to do? When you wake up in the morning, see if that pace is the same, and then you know how to execute. You had warmer weather come in — okay, you get permission to slow down just a little bit. And that doesn't mean you have to stick to that environment-normalized pace — when I'm coaching athletes, I say, here's your starting point, right, the temperature may not bother you as much as some other athletes, it may bother other athletes more, so this is where we want to start as a safe bet, hold there the first mile or first 1200, see how we feel. Okay, we can start to inch up. There's nothing better than a negative split in a 5K — those feel really good, and you're passing people that last mile, by the groups, not just one by one, but by groups at that point.

Carrie: Yeah, you wanna see on your results — 'cause a lot of results pages now show how many people you passed rather than how many people passed you — you wanna see that you've passed people. Yes.

Brady: It takes control to hold back that first mile when everyone's taken off. It's so cute, I love when the little kids all line up in front, and they blast out, go about a hundred meters, and then start walking.

Carrie: And then they need to ride in by the cop car, right?

Brady: Yep, and they're walking in, and okay, here they come. Yeah, there's nothing worse than being that person and then being humbled — it's much better to start easier and build from there. So RunDot, or RaceX, is your — that's your potential, nothing wrong with starting right below it. Because if you know that average pace is a 9-minute mile, well if you start at 9:10s, maybe you go 9:10, 9-minute, 8:50, you still have a little gas in the tank, and that averages out to be a 9-minute mile — you kinda ease in, there's lots of ways to do it. Or you just go right out at 9, because that's what RaceX says. Lots of ways to play with that.

Carrie: Yeah, I think that's a big thing, and I was gonna say before you go to the start line, just kind of understand that — you have to remind yourself, it is a constant mental tug to think that you can go, right — but in the 5K, even though it seems like it's gonna be done pretty quick, if you go too hard, it can really mess with your race. So it's a hard event to nail, but once you do, it's like, now I get it.

Brady: Yeah, I find the 5K and the marathon the hardest to absolutely nail — it's like, I left some time on the table, or I started out too fast. 10K, half, a little bit more forgiving in that aspect. But the hardest ones to nail are definitely the two big kahunas on either end.

Carrie: The pacing — the pacing is hard, that's for sure. Well, this has been fun, we got through a lot, I think we could talk about the 5K forever.

Brady: We should do a follow-up, I would love to, 'cause I like suffering.

Carrie: For sure. Yeah, let's go to our cooldown question, because it's a good one. Jenna writes: "Hi RunDot friends, this is Jenna from Denver. I'm training for my first 5K, and I keep seeing strides as part of my easy runs, like four or five short pickups. I don't understand why I'd add speed to what's supposed to be an easy day — can you explain what this is? Thanks for everything you do." So yeah, this is one thing we kind of talked about — rest days, easy days, and why would we do strides on an easy day?

Brady: Right. So strides, if done right, should be brief — they're fifteen to thirty seconds, and they're in there to work on running mechanics. They're short, they're brief, and a stride shouldn't be — you go from easy pace to sprint, it should be a progression over the 15 to 30 seconds you're doing them. And even though you're increasing the pace, your heart rate should not be getting over that zone two threshold. Because that heart rate target on an easy day — like I said, my upper limit's 148, that's where I cross over, 138 is where, on a zone two day, my heart rate should be. If I start a stride at 138, and do a progression over 30 seconds, my heart rate's gonna climb, and then I stop after 30 seconds, go right back into that zone two pace — my heart rate's not gonna cross over 148. So we're still keeping it easy, we're just kind of priming the body, working on some running mechanics, improving our running economy. That's why those are in there.

Carrie: I always kind of think of them too on easy days as like flushing out the body — sometimes you are a bit sore, and if you can just open up that stride a little bit for a short amount of time, but don't put too much into it, it just kind of lets the muscles elongate a little bit and feel good. But I agree, Jenna, that is kind of confusing sometimes — you're like, wait, I thought today was supposed to be easy, but now I'm gonna breathe a little bit heavy for like 10 seconds maybe. So yeah, it's something you wanna ask about.

Brady: And it does feel good to move a little faster, because, as we were talking earlier, with a sign on our back that says "zone two day," right, my stride length is significantly shorter — it does feel good to kind of open things up and stretch things out. Running a faster pace briefly makes it more comfortable, if that makes sense, to run that easier pace afterward. And they're suggested throughout the run, so it's not all at the very beginning, they're kind of sprinkled in — you have freedom on when to do them. If you got a forty-minute run, maybe you do it at ten minutes, twenty minutes, thirty minutes, and thirty-eight minutes, something like that — and it adds some variety, helps break up the workout, so it's not just running forty minutes at this pace — you have, in two minutes I'm gonna do my next set of strides, you get something to look forward to.

Carrie: Yeah, for sure. I still think RunDot needs to make the zone t-shirts now — we need to say, leave me alone, I'm in zone four. Or, I know I'm going up and down, I'm in zone two, get out of here. I'm in zone six, I can't talk.

Brady: Yes, zone two, that's why I'm walking. Yeah, don't even ask a question, I'll give you a nod.

Carrie: Yeah, yeah, I'm — or maybe something else, like a middle finger, and you don't wanna do that?

Brady: What, did you just look at me the wrong way?

Carrie: Read between the lines, peeps. My goodness, Brady, we're going off the rails. But hey, this has been really fun to talk about the 5K. I love the 5K — I think a lot of times my race pictures kind of show all the emotions, all the pain, everything. I think if you want to have a pretty race picture, go take it early on in the race in the 5K — you might not have the best race-day photos at the end, but you're gonna get after it, so — or at the starting corral, there's always smiles there. And then at the end, of course. But thanks for breaking it down a little bit — we'll get you back on the show for sure, and I hope everyone continues to get after it.

Brady: Thanks for having me.

Carrie: Yay!