5 Core Nutrition Tips for Runners from a Registered Dietitian

Carrie Tollefson: this is the first of many nutrition podcasts on the Run Dot podcast. I am so excited for you to meet her all. Meet her everyone and we're gonna learn five core nutrition principles that Jillian can't wait to tell all of the runners about. Her name is Jillian Tholen and she shares the same zip code as me. She's from St. Paul, Minnesota. Jillian is a registered dietician who specializes in helping runners, skiers, cyclists, and other active individuals learn how to best fuel their bodies for training, performance, and life. She's a lifelong runner. She was a collegiate All-American in cross country at Augustana University, and she has then continued to train and run ever since her college days. Jillian is the first to say that she made lots of mistakes with her own nutrition throughout her running career. She is very passionate about helping other athletes avoid mistakes. So I'm excited to welcome Jillian and wait first Jillian I gotta tell everyone who I am. I'm Keri Telfson. I'm an Olympian broadcaster and your guide to the world of run dot. We treat the show like any good workout. We're gonna start with our warm-up question. We'll settle into the main set conversation and then we'll wind things down by having Jillian answer an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff and as you can see I'm pumped so let's get after it. Hi Jillian!

Jillian Tholen: Hi, thanks for having me, you guys. So excited to be here.

Carrie Tollefson: I know you're like so close yet so far away like you're just like two blocks away from me. Seriously we should next time. Okay so let's start with our warm-up question. So every week we start the Run.Podcast with this Jillian. This one is going to be\...

Jillian Tholen: I we could be actually in the same room doing this.

Carrie Tollefson: there for everyone to answer on our socials, so we'll get into that after. But we want to know depending on the length of your race, any good race course should have some tables with water, electrolytes, and calorie options. For our warm-up question today, if you could add any food or beverage to the typical race day aid station that they don't usually have, what would it be?

Jillian Tholen: Well, I was thinking about this one and I was kind of trying to think about what I've seen on race courses in the past. And it really depends on whether it's a road race or a trail race, right? Like the ultras will have everything. I'm sure you guys have seen those before where they have everything from like potato chips to PB and J's to Swedish fish to\... I've even seen pancakes before. So I was kind of trying to think about a typical road race where it's a little bit slimmer. And I think this might be a weird answer, but I think the thing I would add would be some kind of gummy candy. So I would do like Swedish fish or like those fruity Tootsie rolls. Maybe that sounds weird. but something that you could just like, like there's never any of those things at the aid stations. I think that would be a fun ad, right?

Carrie Tollefson: Uh-huh. Ooh. Yeah. I think that would be a great ad. I was thinking, and you know me and my Dr. Pepper. I would, and I don't want flat though. I know that everyone says flat coke, but I would like, if especially if I was doing like a marathon or an ultra type race, if I could just have like a swig of really good Dr. Pepper on a hot day and have it be cold, that to me. But I want to ask you when you're talking about gummies,

Jillian Tholen: Yeah! Yeah, mm-hmm Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Like, you know, candy, not gummies, but candies. Does that give you electrolytes too?

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. They, a lot of them do have a little bit of sodium in them. Yeah. Even, and even just like your typical, you know, Mott's fruit snacks or like Swedish fish, you wouldn't necessarily have to buy the electrolyte, you know, Cliff Blocks or something.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so many people think electrolytes just come in liquid form, but no. It's\... Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Right, we get electrolytes from our food, really, right? If you think about eating pretzels, you get sodium from those. That's an electrolyte, technically, right? I know, yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: I know, but we don't talk about that very often. Okay, well audience, we want to hear from you too. We'll ask this question on all of our Rundown social media accounts. I'm curious to hear. what you would add to your race day aid station. Find us on our socials, let us know. All right, main set Jillian. We are all about getting to know you because we're gonna have you on multiple podcasts. So before we get into all the registered dietician stuff and talking about nutrition and hydration, we know that you're a runner. So when did you start running? What has the journey been like?

Jillian Tholen: I couldn't tell you how old I was when I actually started running, but what I remember most clearly is when I was young, starting to run road races with my dad. He was a runner before I was born. He ran the Twin Cities Marathon a few times. And then he kind of started getting back into it when I was, I was probably like 10 or so. I grew up in rural Southwest Minnesota, also similar to Carrie. And at schools, in that area of the state, you're kind of a three sport athlete. So you don't just do one thing. You really don't specialize or you didn't when I was growing up. So I played basketball and I played softball and all those fun things. But I started doing road races very casually with my dad when I was probably like 10. And we would just do a few every summer. It kind of became our family thing. And then when I was in seventh grade, because again, we had a seven through 12 high school, very small town. When I was in seventh grade I really wanted to play volleyball because I this is kind of this is more yes this is kind of like a Minnesota thing but my high school is a just a volleyball powerhouse for girls volleyball so I really wanted to play volleyball I thought it'd be so fun and I so my dad but my dad convinced me to run cross-country for better or worse

Carrie Tollefson: Well, you had a very good volleyball team there too. Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: And so that's where I started running, you know, varsity sports and I ran. So I ran track and cross country through high school. I played basketball also through high school, also similar to Carrie, and that is very much still a part of who I am. So that's kind of like the start of my journey. I would say that for a lot of my high school career, especially as I got later on into high school, my running was very competitive. It was kind of fun when I started out, you know, it was like a fun thing to do with friends, but then, I don't know when or why this changed. I don't know if it's because I'm the first born or what it's about, but I am a very competitive person and I think that I started to have fun just like beating people and seeing if I could run faster. And I think at some point to\... I don't know if this was something I was told by my parents, but I recognized that there could be another level of running and I could potentially run in college. And so I think that was also a motivator to try to work hard and see how good I could be and also made me more competitive. And so. I, of course, as you know, got to run at Augustana in Sioux Falls and I had a very up and down career when I was there. I know we're not supposed to do this, but I, with everything I know now, particularly about fueling, I often think back to my collegiate career and think about how much different that could have been, like how much better I could have been if I would have known some of these things because my fueling was not on point. And I was injured.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Like what did you do wrong, do you think?

Jillian Tholen: a lot. I think I just didn't eat enough. I didn't know the right types of foods to eat. I was\...so I mentioned this before, but my high school is very small and so\... I didn't have very high level coaching in high school. I kind of did a lot of, and again, kind of my dad was like, well, maybe you should go run some more miles. Or, you know, he was kind of encouraging me to do more, which I know is a thing sometimes for better or worse with high school athletes. But still, I didn't ever run high mileage. I didn't do a lot of training. So when I went to college, it was a huge jump for me to actually start running more consistently and with more intensity. And I just don't think. I don't think I fueled it well. I didn't understand what it meant to actually eat the amount that I needed to eat. And so I had one really good season. I was an All-American my freshman year of college. Unfortunately, the next three years were just a roller coaster of ups and downs and injuries. And I never had a bone injury, but it was always some kind of niggle or pain or something that held me out, some tendonitis. And I know now that those types of injuries are absolutely related to fueling in most cases, right? So anyway, I think about that a lot. And yeah, but that I will stop rambling, but that's kind of my journey from when I started through college and then post-collegiate. I just kept running.

Carrie Tollefson: What is your favorite memory of racing or I mean because you even raced really well after college Especially here in the Twin Cities. You've run really well in the 10-mile course and some other done some ultras Which that one didn't go very well because it was some it was hot and icky But you still like you still did it. You're still an ultra marathoner I know that it's really good for your practice too because you learned a lot about your body during that ultra

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, for better or worse. No! Well, I\... Yeah. Oh man. I've done so many dumb things that have learned, that have taught me a lot. Wisdom with age comes wisdom, right? That's, that's what I think about a lot. So I did look at this question and I had three that came to mind. So if it's okay for me to share my three most, most favorite race memories, I will do that. And I think they're, they're each from a different segment, segment of my career. So I guess that's fun. When I was in eighth grade, I, um,

Carrie Tollefson: Haven't we all? Exactly. Yep. Yes. Love that.

Jillian Tholen: I was a part of a four by eight team that won the state title in track and we won the race by one one hundredth of a second. So it was like a lean at the line. I was not the anchor. was like, I was like the third leg, but that is such a, that was such a cool memory. And then in college, that race that I ran my freshman year in cross country at nationals when I just like ran like so well. That was also a favorite race. It was in Florida on this like equestrian course. It was just like pancake flat, really random. Beautiful weather, like I'll never forget that race either. And then my third favorite memory, and Carrie, you just alluded to the 10 mile course. I love the Twin Cities 10 mile. That's my favorite road race of all time. I've just never had a better time in a road race. And that's a long distance for me. So that's kind of saying something. I ran it, was it, what year was it? I don't know what year it was. It was maybe 2017 or 2018. And I ran it with my then boyfriend, now husband, Ryan. He ran.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. So beautiful. Yeah. Ryan, he's so nice.

Jillian Tholen: He ran next to me the whole way. He paced me and I won the open women's division. So not the pro division, I was the first female who was non-pro. And it was special for two reasons. One, I'd never won that race before and it was cool that he ran it with me. And two, you get a cash prize for winning when you're not a pro. Well, guess pros do too. And it was like, think it was like \$500 and we joked that that paid the rent. That was like my professional athlete, you know. Yes, yes I was. So those are my three favorite and I will again stop rambling, but I just couldn't. Those ones really stand out to me in my memory.

Carrie Tollefson: Yes! You were his sugar mama for that month. Yeah, let me just, can I just paint a fun picture about Ryan? So. Yes, so Ryan is a super handsome guy tall dark and handsome sometimes has a mustache kind of looks like he probably belongs like in the 70s in a Western at times that's that's it's Yeah, he just seems like a cowboy at times But one of my favorite things is when I first started getting to know Ryan and I run with Ryan probably if we can once a week He's so good to text me like hey I'm going out for 30 minutes and I love it and he's a coach and very much in the sport But the first time I really got to know him and I think I actually was like I am gonna be super good friends with this guy is that you guys met us during one of the long run challenges and run dot peeps we'll get into the long run challenge another day but it was this thing I used to do and yes so fun you add a mile each week it's awesome but anyway Ryan runs up and I'm like this dude is running and cut off shorts jean shorts and I'm like

Jillian Tholen: I know about the long run challenge, I remember these. He was wearing those.

Carrie Tollefson: Who is this guy? First of all, he kinda has this, you know, little funkiness to him. Super kind guy. But he's wearing cut-off jean shorts. And then I realized they're actually running shorts, running material, but they look like jean shorts!

Jillian Tholen: my gosh, I wonder if they still sell those. We have to put them in the show notes, the link.

Carrie Tollefson: They were so, they're so good. And I think it was super hot. So he didn't have a shirt on either. Yeah. So he had like that, that outfit. It's so good. Anyway. Okay. Back to questions about you, Jillian. So Jillian, I want to know a little bit about how you got into nutrition. Cause now we've heard a little bit about your running background. We, well, first, are you still running now today?

Jillian Tholen: I bet it was. They're little split shorts. I know which ones you're talking about. That's a great first memory. Yeah off and on, had my son, let's see, he's two and a half, so he was born in 2023. I was, but I like earlier that year I got hurt in a ski accident, I hurt my hip and I really, so then.

Carrie Tollefson: so cute. And let's just let's just preface that you and I are not skiers so much

Jillian Tholen: No, no, and this wasn't even downhill skiing. This was like, this was Nordic skiing. But I just, I was, yeah, I pole vaulted over my pole and it was not good for my hip. And then I got pregnant very shortly after and didn't really run through that. I just like didn't feel great. So, so since then I've just been trying to rehab that hip and that's been kind of a problem spot for me. So I am running but not as consistently as I would like to be.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Then feel well. No. But you're getting back.

Jillian Tholen: I'm hopeful, yeah. I really am trying my best to work on my strength, which I know, we know, right, as any of us age, that's more more important to keep us going. So I'm really trying to lean into that to help support my return to running, but I'm hopeful that I can run the 10 mile again someday, or maybe that AFDN 25K. It's just inconsistent right now, but I'm kind of okay with it. I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to like take it as it comes and, you know, In this phase of life when, you know, like you said, Ryan's coaching and Aiman's really small, my son is pretty young and trying to run a business, like I don't always have the capacity to dedicate a lot of energy to training. And I don't think, not in a bad way, but sometimes it's good to just go out for a walk and that's okay too. So I'm just trying to embrace the flexibility of it as well.

Carrie Tollefson: busy. Yep. Exactly. Yep. For sure. So tell me how you got into nutrition and all of that.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, that's kind of an interesting story too. So when I was in high school, I really, this is gonna sound like a roundabout story, but I really wanna be an architect. And maybe you know that, Carrie. That was my first love.

Carrie Tollefson: I don't know if I knew that, because you know that's what Charlie does. That's what my husband does. my gosh.

Jillian Tholen: I do know that. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, I wanted to be an architect. I really love design. I still love design. I always say in my second life I would be a graphic designer. I would do something art related. But I really wanted to be an architect, but then I also really wanted to run in college. And I learned somehow that you couldn't do both, or that's what I was told. And so instead of being like, well, I'm full speed ahead on my career, I was like, no, I need to run. So I'll just do something else. That's fine. was a biology major at Augie and biology is very general obviously and I didn't really have a plan. But I was thinking figure it out. I'll do PT or I'll do pre-med. which kind of covers those bases. And when I graduated, before graduation, I wasn't really sure that either of those was the right fit for me. this is true story. was kind of like, nutrition seems interesting. Maybe I'll just go to grad school, because I thought it'd be fun to be a professor. So I applied to grad schools all over the country, and I just happened to end up here in the Twin Cities. I have a lot of family here as well. Got my master's degree here, and then I actually took a break for a year because I just needed to stop and think about what I actually wanted to do instead of continuing to kind of just like go to school. That's when I worked at Run & Fun, I worked at the farmers market, I worked at a little cafe, and I just took a minute to think about it. And then I\... took some time to take a sports nutrition class and get back more into the exercise physiology realm. And that sports nutrition class was what did it for me. I was like, this is it. I want to do this. I do want to do nutrition, but I don't want to do the research I was doing in my master's. I want to work with people. I want to work with athletes. So that's kind of like where the light bulb happened for me of like, this is what I want to do here. But then I had to go back to school, do more under-grade classes, and then do the whole internship, which all Registered dietitians have to do is spend all of this time. It's essentially a residency where you go through all of these different Areas of dietetics kind of getting your feet wet in different realms like clinical dietetics like I was at HCMC and you know like the NICU and the ICU and that was wild like seeing those dietitians place feeding tubes and calculate tube feeds It's amazing what they do. That was not for me. we also got to do community rotations and food service and then The particular program that I chose was through the partnership between the U of and the EMILY program, which was also one of the reasons I was interested in it, which I can speak to if you would like. The EMILY program is an eating disorder treatment center. I was very aware that athletes and eating disorders are often associated. There's not always, but there can definitely be a component of disordered eating in a lot of athlete populations, particularly endurance sports. And I had seen that myself. So that was really interesting to me. So anyway, I got to do a rotation with the Emily program as well. So that was my education. So that's kind of that whole walking you through like from high school all the way through my education, how I got my degree. And then I did more specific work. to get my CSSD, which is my Certified Specialization in Sports Dietetics. So I have that additional specialty as well.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. Yeah, but now you are all in on doing your own thing. Like you have your own business as of what three, four months ago. Like you are in the clinical setting and doing other things, but now you're fully all in on your own.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Fully yes. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. I've had a private practice, kind of going half, half private practice, half clinical orthopedic position for eight years. And I just, yeah, left that clinical position last year, um, to just go full into my own private practice, which I no, last year, like, uh, September, I think I left, left my, my previous like part-time job. So yeah, it's been all in since September.

Carrie Tollefson: Has it already been a year? Okay.

Jillian Tholen: but she's been good. Yeah, it is going well. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Carrie Tollefson: And it's going well, right? Like you're having a blast doing it. So what is different about being on your own?

Jillian Tholen: I think I had, I knew this before, but managing your own schedule is a blessing and a curse. It's very easy, at least I find that it's very easy to do too much, to overbook myself, to overwhelm myself with work. And it feels like it's hard, it's easy to burn out, right? When you're kind of doing everything. I mean, you get to decide how much work you do. you know, how much time you take off the boundaries you set. And that's something I am still working on. So that's the biggest change is that it's all of that, you know.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, learning. Yeah. And who do you primarily work with now?

Jillian Tholen: I primarily work with athletes and I also have a fairly high caseload still of disordered eating and eating disorders because that's always been kind of part of my private practice. And again, of that is overlap, right? I'm sure at some point we will talk about relative energy deficiency in sport, low energy availability under fueling. That's a lot of what I work on with athletes. And sometimes there's a disordered eating component to that and sometimes there's not. So. It's good to have that experience and I'm always seeing that, seeing my athletes through that lens, like that's something I'm screening for, but not everyone has that going on.

Carrie Tollefson: Well, and I think that's really interesting because red ass isn't always like you don't really know it until it's full, full fledged, you know, or you're like, why am I feeling this way? You know, even if you're eating in abundance or what you should be, it's it still can happen. So yeah, there's all kinds of things we're going to learn with you during this series.

Jillian Tholen: Right. Mm-hmm. It's sneaky. Yes. Mm-hmm. Right. the education that I want to help spread about reds and under fueling is I could go on and on. So, so excited. I could talk about it.

Carrie Tollefson: okay, well get ready for it. So but today we're gonna talk to you about your five core things that runners need to know about nutrition. Whether that is red ass, whatever, it's all on you today Jillian. And then as we go through the series, we're gonna keep asking the audience what they wanna know and you know, maybe hone in on something a little bit more next time we chat to you. But let's just kind of do an overview. So can you tell us your first\... Core Nutrition Principle Number One.

Jillian Tholen: Yes. So when I think about core nutrition principles, think sometimes, and sometimes I think athletes\... Here, especially the first couple of these, and I think this feels really vague. This doesn't feel that specific to me, but that's on purpose. We really kind of have to zoom out when we're thinking about nutrition and look at the whole big picture. When you're an athlete, you're still a person. And our biggest priority for you when it comes to your nutrition or your training or your sleep or your lifestyle is for you to be healthy first and foremost, right? The healthiest version of you is also going to perform the best. So that's always something I'm keeping in mind with nutrition. It's big picture first. And then we kind of get more specific. And Carrie's heard me talk about this before, but I almost think about it in terms of like a pyramid. And that's kind of how I'm going to speak through that today. Like the foundation, we need the foundation to be really strong before we can kind of get up to those next levels. So my principle number one is going to sound really simple, but it's eat enough. It's eat enough always. We have to eat enough food. It's really, really common for active individuals. to not eat enough. And it can be very unintentional, and it can be hard to notice. I see it manifest in a lot of different ways, but eating enough calories every day is really what's going to set you up for best health and best performance. So it's really as simple as that. And I can go into more detail about how we know, but.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Well, that's what I'm wondering. That was what my follow-up was going to be like, you know, is it different for everyone? Is it just do you have to look at your energy output all the time? Like how do you as a dietitian come to me? Like say it's me, Carrie, you know, I run maybe 30 minutes a day on average. I'm not running that much anymore compared to what I used to. Now, those of you who run 30 minutes a day don't think I'm I'm saying you're not running a lot just when you think of what I've done in the past.

Jillian Tholen: Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Right, relative for you.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, so is it everyone is different or do you have kind of a base number?

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, everyone's really different. And I even caution against looking at, let's say what your Garmin is telling you for output. There was a recent research article that looked at the accuracy of different wearables in terms of calorie burn. they're wildly off, to say the least. Anywhere from 20 to 60 % different in actual energy burn. So I don't want people to look at that. And when you think about the guidelines for Americans, a lot of people know 2,000 calories a day as being like, that's what we're supposed to eat. But that doesn't take into account any of our variability in terms of size or shape or how well trained we are or how much movement we actually get in outside of training or with training. So yes, everyone's very, very different. And there are two ways we can go about it, figuring out what you need. When I'm working with somebody one on one, we get pretty specific. your needs we're gonna really dig into like how many hours a week are you training what is your lifestyle like like I have someone right now who is a physician and he walks so many he walks all the time right even outside of his training so he has higher energy needs anyway If I'm working with you, we're going to calculate your needs and we're going to get pretty specific. But does everyone necessarily need to calculate their needs? No. I mean, we can look at some pretty big and obvious things to know pretty quickly whether you're probably pretty close to meeting your needs or you're really far off. And part of that is, you eat three meals a day? And that's actually, that gets into my next point, right? Like we build on this. with this next core principle is we have to be eating consistently. This principle, yes, and again, they build on each other because if you are eating enough, you're certainly gonna be eating consistently, right? And this to me means we're not skipping meals. We're never going more than like three or four hours without eating. Those are just checkpoints that we can have, right? Usually for runners, if you\...

Carrie Tollefson: So eat enough and eat consistently. That is a lot.

Jillian Tholen: It is, yeah, it feels like a lot, right? Most runners need at least, well, definitely three meals and then two or three snacks at least a day. And we'll talk a little bit more about nutrient timing in a little bit, but you're probably gonna eat something before and after you run, right? That's already maybe two snacks depending on the timing of your run. But in order to not go more than three or four hours without eating throughout the day, you're probably gonna need to include some snacks outside of meals as well.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. So like when you would go into the office, Jillian, would you, like is your bag, do you have a bag of snacks?

Jillian Tholen: I always do keep snacks with me. I keep them in my car and that's something I tell everyone I work with to always have car snacks, stash snacks. Like, what do we have in our car right now? Usually I'm a cli- I do like Clif bars. Those are our favorite. Not the ones with chocolate because it's gonna get warm out and we don't want chocolate melting in our car. I like the Belvita bars. Those are pretty, those are pretty friendly for the car. packets of like goldfish crackers. Like easy stuff, right? Like things that are gonna keep for a while.

Carrie Tollefson: Like what? Like what? And it melts. Yep. Yeah, almost like stuff you would give your kids you can have for us too.

Jillian Tholen: Yes, totally. Yes, exactly. So then you're never caught somewhere unexpectedly without food. And I do always keep snacks in my bag, too. Like if I'm packing my bag to go into the office, there's probably three granola bars like floating around in there in a Clif bar or something like that. Maybe. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. See, I think that's an important tip because I am just not one to, like, I am that track mom right now that doesn't have a cooler. Like, I gotta get with the program. Because every track mom or dad or coach like everyone has snacks all the time and you know I just I for one I'm kind of running around with my head cut off and that's the last thing I think of and I need to stop that because I think like you said like just having car snacks like put something in your console and have peanut butter pretzels or something that gives you yeah like something in there.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great one too. But Carrie, think what you're speaking to though is also just like this being a person who just like has a ton going on and nutrition is the last thing you're thinking about. This is probably one of the top reasons that\... most of the runners that I see, the adults at least, are under fueled because we just aren't prioritizing it in a way that like is helpful. And that's why, you know, my first priority is to eat enough always. Obviously with that, we're going to dig into the reasons that eating enough is challenging, right? But it's like, but, but hacks like this, like you're saying, they kind of can save us when we're like, shoot, I totally forgot to pack my snack for after my long run. Okay, well I have it. I have stuff in my car. I'll be fine. At least until like get to where I'm going. Yes.

Carrie Tollefson: until I get home. Yeah, or what? Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: Or I have, I know I have something in my bag, right? But it is, it's kind of figuring out like, what are my weak spots too, right? Again, like that's something I'm always trying to do with each individual runner. Like what is the, what are the challenges for you? And when we go back to this, no, I was going to say that's when, when we go back to this number two core nutrition principle and I say eat consistently, like eat three meals a day.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. But that's what I love about you too. yeah, go ahead. I'll give you praise in a second.

Jillian Tholen: I cannot tell you how many high school athletes in particular I have met with who just don't eat breakfast. And they're like three sport athletes training maybe 20 hours a week. And then I'm getting questions about supplements and I'm like, well, are you eating breakfast? Because we got to start there. But adults too. Yeah, yeah, no, we don't even need to talk about that if we're not eating breakfast.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, might not need to have supplements if you eat normal foods. Eat consistently. Eat enough. Yeah, but that's what I was going to say about how you work and I think that I love it because you are this expert. but you make it easy. So you always like when you talk to me, it's like how Rundot helps with athletes. It's not that we need to have this scientific background necessarily. Yes, Rundot provides that, but they give it easy through their app. They make the workouts easy. They make the easy days easy. And you sort of do the same. We are gonna live our lives, but you're just like that extra tool we need on our tool belts. us it doesn't have to be rocket science just put some dang snacks in your bag lady

Jillian Tholen: Great. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I have a great, a good friend who, also she's a wonderful dietitian and she uses this phrase of like, we don't. We need to just aim for a C with our nutrition. We don't need to aim for an A plus all the time. And sometimes that's really helpful. Just to be like, it doesn't have to be perfect. I just need some goldfish crackers. I just need some trail mix. It's OK. And maybe at some point we'll talk about the idea of processed foods versus whole foods for runners or something like that. But I

Carrie Tollefson: We should do that because I think my life like it when I go through the grocery store right now I'm like I am one processed food after the next

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Are you overwhelmed? Yeah, and sometimes that's okay, right?

Carrie Tollefson: I don't know but okay so I'm gonna go back. Nutrition Principle number one, eat enough. Core Nutrition Principle number two, eat consistently. Core Nutrition Principle number three, Jill, what's it gonna be?

Jillian Tholen: Okay. Number three is building on the first two, we want to get a variety of nutrients in. So for me, that means all of our food groups throughout the day. What I like to think about, I like to think about it in a way that hopefully feels easy is when I'm looking at a meal or I'm putting something together, I'm looking for a source of carbs, a source of protein, and some source of color. Healthy fats are also great and fluids, but carbs, protein and color are like my core, right? Do I have For the most part, there's no perfect, but for the most part, am I including these three food groups, these big food groups at all of my meals? And when we get that nutrient diversity, right, we know we're hitting all of our boxes for the training, for the recovery, for the repair, for the adaptation to, you know, make sure that we're getting the vitamins and minerals and micronutrients that we need. And we're doing that throughout the day. So, Again, like it feels like kind of a basic concept, but it kind of, it's important, right? Because if you think about, okay, well, how do I even make a meal? What is a meal? Well, a meal is not a yogurt, right? A meal is a bowl of yogurt with fruit and peanut butter and granola and maybe a slice of toast on the side and, you know, glass of water with electrolytes if you just trained. It's a big, like that's, it just helps you kind of outline. What should a meal look like? Right? And then when it comes to snacks, you can use kind of a similar principle of like, probably just shoot for a couple food groups. It's a really basic concept, but it can really add up to great nutrient diversity, making sure that you're spreading your nutrition throughout the day, right? You're not just having protein at dinner, which is something I see sometimes. You're not skipping carbs at lunch because you're only having a salad, right? You're just like always kind of thinking about those things. And it doesn't, again, it doesn't have to be complicated, but it really does add up to like getting yourself to a place with your nutrition where you can kind of like think in a big, in big picture about your basic needs. So it doesn't have to feel overwhelming, right?

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, so like whenever you're eating, mean, do you kind of look to see that you have it all? I mean, are you are you calculating a little bit every time you eat?

Jillian Tholen: Like for the most part right and this is it's again. It's not perfect Sometimes you eat mac and cheese for dinner and that's fine, right? but In general, that's kind of how I think about if I'm making a, if I'm making dinner, right? For our family, I'm thinking about like, okay, like what did we have last night? We had, we had quesadillas. So what's my carb going to be at dinner? We're going to have tortillas. What is my protein going to be? We had chicken and we had cheese. What is my color going to be? We had red peppers and we had some guacamole and we had salsa. Those are colors that counts. Salsa counts, right? Tomato sauce counts. It's not complicated. And we had fruit. So That's kind of how I think about it, right? Are my boxes checked? But it can work with a lot of different meals, right? It doesn't have to be this like picturesque plate of like chicken and rice and vegetables, right? You know, if you think about something even like pizza, like if we use frozen pizza, for an example, which we eat in my household, just want everybody to know that, you could think about the crust is your, that it's like, right, that's your carb. And then you have Your cheese is probably your protein. There's like a surprising amount of protein in frozen pizza, by the way. It's interesting. Maybe you have meat on there. There's another protein source. Your color comes from the, sauce, your red sauce. If you want to add some more veg on top, you just have some in the fridge, like throw some broccoli, throw some spinach, mushrooms on there you can. You can also serve it with a salad. There's your, there's some color. You have a balanced meal that has all the food groups in. and you used a pizza, right? Again, it doesn't have to be this like complicated thing, but we know we got carbs for energy, we got protein for recovery and adaptation, we got healthy fats for hormones, and we got the color for those micronutrients, right? So we're good, right? So again, that's like how I like to think about it in just a really broad sense.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. But when you\... I know and it makes it sound super easy. But I think, I don't know, I guess I'm always wondering like, do dieticians buy tombstone pizza? Like do you buy? What? No. I love DiShorno. Do you like the stuffed crust or just the plain? Yeah.

Jillian Tholen: Do you know what our favorite pizza is in this household? It's DiGiorno. It's the best. It's the best. We've tried a lot of frozen pizzas. We just like the regular. We tried the wood-fired one too. Not as good. The regular DiGiorno is our go-to.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. So also I want to know do you eat Kraft mac and cheese or do you eat what's the other one Annie's?

Jillian Tholen: We do both. We've also tried the Goodles one, which is pretty good. Have you seen those ones? That one is slightly healthified, I will say. It's got a little bit more protein in it and some fruits and veggies, but we will do them all. I just want to be very clear. We are not solely that, right?

Carrie Tollefson: You do? Okay, good. See? Peeps. She's normal. I don't know if I've, no. Is that at like Whole Foods or something? That's great. Because it's so funny. A lot of people, a lot of the kids will come over and then they I like I like the spirals from Kraft. It just brings me back. They're so good. There's something different about that powdered cheese. But.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Ooh, uh-huh. Spy rules are really good.

Carrie Tollefson: They are. But I've had a number of moms text me and be like, my kids only want to come to your house because you serve the Kraft Mac and cheese. And if an Olympian serves Kraft Mac and cheese, they think it's OK. I'm like, they're going to get a lot of the old school, maybe not the best brands over here. I do like it. It brings back Dawson, Minnesota to me.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah, I love that. You know what though, like that's also, and I mean, you're just like, you're speaking my language, right? Like this is one of my principles too. It's important to be flexible, right? And obviously I'm kind of alluding to that saying like, yes, we eat salad, but also we eat frozen pizza and we're good with that, right? It's part of having a healthy relationship with food also, which is big.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a huge thing. I know because you go too healthy and then things maybe start to spiral and so there are things and you and I have talked a lot about this you know we're in this world with athletes that are pretty dialed in and we're talking to athletes that clearly are pretty dialed in but also we talk to the best and the best like you know some of the best athletes in the world and I think they surprise me all the time at how they actually eat very I don't even know if I can do air quotes with normal, but they will they will eat all of the things that you wouldn't think they would eat.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's great to see

Carrie Tollefson: And I do think it's because they're putting out so much energy and they're fatigued and they want something good. They don't necessarily want to fuel with something that is I'm sure that they're thinking about all the things like you talk about but I think to just by eating what you crave sometimes and it doesn't always have to be the most perfect in nutrients, but it is enough.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. You know, I\... When I hear someone who is really excited about eating extremely healthy, sometimes that's like, to use that word, I actually don't, I don't love the word healthy, but it is used a lot. I think sometimes that can actually be a red flag for me because sometimes when we're too focused on eating, especially again, like a high level endurance athlete who's running a lot of miles and they're expending a ton of energy, if we're eating too healthy, which to me means a lot of fruits and vegetables and lean protein, we're eating too healthy. Usually those athletes are so full. physically that they actually can't eat enough calories to meet their energy needs, if that makes sense. And bringing it back to processed foods, sometimes the white rice, the white tortillas, the white crackers, those things are actually really, important for athletes with high needs because if we don't eat foods that are a little bit lower in fiber, for example, it's going to be impossible to meet our energy needs. So we do, like that's part of balance too. I've certainly seen\... I've seen athletes who are very unbalanced in that way, where they just can't meet their carb goals because they're eating too much protein or too much fat or too much fiber. And that's really tricky. But it's so much of what is encouraged in our culture for non-runners, right? Of like, is healthy way to eat. And that is something that I think confuses a lot of people.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, and I also really like that you mentioned feeling full. There's a lot of athletes that sort of take pride in knowing, I did a long run and I'm just not hungry. You know, and so then they don't have to necessarily eat after because they're not hungry. Well, that is we almost sometimes have to I hate to say force, but there are moments where you have to just this is, you know, food is fuel. That is an old saying, right? Putting gas in a car like even if you don't want to you have to.

Jillian Tholen: You, Carrie, you didn't even know what I wrote down for my principles, but this is number four. So you got me, you segued right into it. Number four is, it's nutrient timing based on your training. So it's always eating before. We never train fasted. We know now that this is not a time to listen to your hunger cue before you train. Training fasted does not burn more fat.

Carrie Tollefson: No. okay, so transition into number four.

Jillian Tholen: It is not helpful for training adaptation. No fasted training. So we're always eating before, especially if it's in the morning. We eat even if we're getting up and heading out the door.

Carrie Tollefson: And you said to me and I tell it every time I talk to you a handful of cereal it does so much more for you than going fasted. So I try to remember that every time I go out at you know in the dark.

Jillian Tholen: Yep, it doesn't have to be a big deal. Yes. Absolutely. Good job. I know it's not easy. like, and I say that to people all the time. I want to really validate that. It's not, I don't expect you to be extremely excited about eating this. That's not why we're doing this, right? You can be hungry later in the day and listen to that hunger cue. When we're fueling around training, we are fueling, I like to call it practical eating. We're fueling because we know that we need it, not because it sounds that great, right? And this is where the education piece can be really helpful of knowing why. But we always feel before. And if you're going in the afternoon, and it's been more than two hours since you ate anything, I would eat something before that run too. So, fueling before, always making sure you're headed out the door adequately fueled, and then always fueling after. And you were just speaking to this, right, Carrie? It's really normal for appetite to be suppressed after a run. And it's doubly suppressed, and for maybe even longer, after a longer run, a harder run, or a hot run. It's so normal, and people will complain about this. And I've felt\... this tube in my own running for food to feel just, it just sounds horrible. It sounds like the worst thing. sounds terrible. Like I don't want that. Gross. But we know because science, right? We have some really great research to talk all about why it's important right after we run to get some carbs in primarily and maybe a little bit of protein if we can in that like 30 to 45 minute window. And then we have a late, we can wait. Then we can chill for a little while before we have a larger meal. want to. If you want to a couple hours, if you have that good snack, you're fine. But we again want to employ that principle of like I'm eating in a practical manner because I know I need this for my recovery not because it sounds that good but because I know I need it. That's huge. It's really important to do that.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, it is huge. Such a great reminder, I think. And again, that car. I mean, we should almost have like a pantry in our car because that's where a lot of us spend a lot of our time. Maybe we should invent that some kind of car pantry for athletes. Jill. Yes. No, you need it close. You need it in that in the glove department.

Jillian Tholen: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Right? Got to keep those carbs in there. A car pantry. Can install it in the trunk somehow. I'm sure we could figure it out. A little fridge. Oh, you're right though. Yeah, it has to be somehow in the glove box or something.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, so you can get to it. Yes, yes. Okay, so run through our principles so far. Principle number one.

Jillian Tholen: Okay, we got eat enough always. That's the base of the foundation. That's our foundation, right? Make sure we're eating enough and eating consistently throughout the day helps make sure we're eating enough, right? So we're not skipping breakfast. We're not skipping lunch because we had a meeting. We're not skipping dinner. We're eating snacks between eating consistently. Huge for recovery, adaptation, meeting our needs, all that. Three, all food groups at all meals. Carbs, protein, color. Look for those. And then\...

Carrie Tollefson: E-E-N-U-F. Love that. Principle 2, eat consistently. Three.

Jillian Tholen: We don't want to discount healthy fats or fluids, but those are the core that we're looking for. color. Yep. And we can be flexible with that. C, B, C. Yes. Okay. Always eat before and after training. So making sure nutrient timing is on point with training. And the thing I didn't mention about that too is that we want to make sure we're eating during a run if we're going more than like 60 or 75 minutes. And that's something that can be its own podcast, that whole thing about intra-run fueling. But once you're going more than an hour-ish, maybe a little more, we want to start thinking about fueling on the run. Gels, chews. know, nerds clusters, drink mix, whatever it is that you want to use, but that's important too.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. and you know what, Jill, as I was talking to you, I just got a whiff of my crock pot. I got some pork loin in there. I found it in my fridge. Okay. Anyway, core nutrition principle number five. Bring it.

Jillian Tholen: Ooh, what are you making? Good job, Carrie. Ugh. You're on it. You found it. Okay, so number five, and this is not by any means, gosh, I don't even know if this is an order of priority, but number five is to keep nutrition flexible and keep it fun and enjoyable. We talked a little bit about this already, but we want to be real people who can do good nutrition in a sustainable way. And the only way to do that is to be flexible, right? Like I said earlier, I think\... we can get too rigid in any way, right? And if we're trying to be too rigid about being too healthy or eating the same things all the time or, you know, trying to avoid processed foods, we'll say, that's not going to be fun. And it actually is probably going to be a detriment to our performance. So being flexible, um, is just, it's a really big principle of healthy nutrition, even for runners, I would say.

Carrie Tollefson: When you think of flexibility with someone that is now being coached by you and talking with you about this, like what is like the main reason people aren't flexible? Or what is it that are they just trying to be like their goals are getting in their way? They're scared that they're overeating. Like what is it that you typically find with athletes? Because I think for me too, like, you know, I've been pretty much the same size and I feel like nutrition for me, like, I have never really had an issue with it. Like I know I could eat healthier, but I haven't ever really neglected myself without knowing, you know what I mean? Like I haven't done it deliberately. I've always wanted to have meals. I've always liked to eat. I've never been afraid of that. But I do think of it as like, if I eat too much, then I probably won't perform. So what do you think like that that flexibility piece? What do you think of when you say that out loud?

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. I think of being okay with all foods and not being worried about\... be\... yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: I really like that gel. Being okay with all foods.

Jillian Tholen: I mean, food is just food too. It doesn't have a moral value, right? So if you have a chocolate chip cookie one day, that's fine. It's not gonna make you a worse runner to eat dessert. It's just carbs, protein, and fat like any other food. So I just do try to be really neutral. Yeah, totally. Yes. I like the way that you put that because yes, I mean, sometimes if I'm talking with somebody about how\...

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. It's like finding the good in it. That's what you do. You find the good in all the things.

Jillian Tholen: like a specific food that is a fear food or something that they really worried about eating or they've heard negative messaging about. mean, a cookie is a good example. That's something I will quiz, will encourage them to do. Can you tell me what nutrition you get from this food? I really hate the phrase no nutritional value because no food has no nutritional value. Even if it is Swedish fish, it has carbohydrates. Like don't tell me it doesn't have nutritional value. That will irk me. So I will do that sometimes. I'm not saying,

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, there's something good. Yeah. Tell us how you really feel about those Swedish fish.

Jillian Tholen: I'm not saying that we should eat all Swedish fish all the time, but it's more the idea of like, it can be a part of our eating and that's fine and that's good and we can move on. I think the other thing that you asked too is just like what I see in the athletes that I work with. And I do think sometimes it can be fear of eating too much that can lead to decreased flexibility. and a lot of athletes are not eating enough. So we kind of have to work on that mindset, right? Or even just, how do I? I think I'm always thinking about how I encourage athletes to just humor me for like two weeks. Like what if you, we try to get you closer to these goals of hitting your carb, your actual carb needs in a day or fueling your long runs a little bit more. And we just see how you feel. And usually people don't turn back. They're like, okay, actually this is fine. So this is helpful. But really it does come back to that perspective that food is just food and all food is good food. All foods fit. Food is fuel. Like you said, and certainly we want to make sure we get enough. and get a good variety, but at the end of the day, nothing is really off limits unless you're allergic to it.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. Do you feel like you're different though than some nutritionists? I mean, I don't know. just, like when I'm watching you and I know that you know this sport, you know the sport of running, you know a lot of different sports, but this is like your passion. You love working with runners. And I feel like because of your life experiences too, like\... You can relate to an athlete so well because you've been through your nutrition journey, you've been through this run journey and you know like you basically can practice what you preach because you've been there done that.

Jillian Tholen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I do. I was actually thinking about this. would I, how would I, if somebody asked me like how I arrived at my philosophy, we'll say. And I think really how I, how I practice and how I work with my athletes and my clients is informed by two things broadly, which are my lived experience as a runner, as a human, as well, and as a female athlete, right? Who lives in the world that we live in. And then by science. So it's my experience and it's my training, science, the literature, like what does it tell us, right? And I think that really is how we get here, right? Because I am a human, right? I've made, like I've said, I've made my own mistakes. I've dealt with reds in the past. There were many years I didn't get my period. I didn't know that was a problem. But here we are, right? I know better now. I think that, I do think that is\... something that can be really helpful in a provider or somebody that you're listening to speak about a certain topic is if you know that they maybe have some experience with it, right? I don't have to have that experience to be an expert on it. Like training is really important too, I mean having the education. But I do think that adds a little bit of extra empathy and maybe understanding on my part. Like I get it, right? Like when I'm talking about eating too healthy, I've done that before. Like I have done that. And I know the importance of eating a frozen pizza for my own mental and physical health in a way that I would not have understood, you know, 15 years ago. So when I see that, right, I hope that I can speak to that a little bit more. Or like someone who doesn't want to take run, they do not want to take any fuel or take any fluids on a run with them. I get that because it's annoying. But like, you know what? You're going to feel amazing if you do it. Like I've done those things. you know I have run 18 miles without taking more than like a little bit it just not a good idea

Carrie Tollefson: Well, and I think that's why I trust you so much is because. I know that you've lived the experience and you understand like maybe trying to be a little bit too healthy is fun for a second, but then it doesn't it's not fun anymore. And so if we want to go and have DiGiorno pizza because it's easy and it tastes dang good and it's going to help our running like that DiGiorno is not going to hurt our running. And I think so many people think that just you know going into Target going into Lunds or going wherever they go, high V and being able to grab a pizza from there versus going to like Whole Foods or a co-op or something like that. That there's a way difference. There are differences, yes, but it is okay to go and get that and I that's what I think like anyone who gets to chat with you or work with you will they have that blessing because you've been there done that and you stand behind your word. On that note, if somebody would like to work with you how did they find you? mean we're gonna put it in the show notes but also if they want to just read about you somewhere or connect with you how can they do that?

Jillian Tholen: Yes, I have a website. It's just Jillianard.com. Nice and easy. Or you can find me, well, and or you can find me on Instagram. My contact form is on my website, so you can reach out. I have an application form if you wanna work with me one on one, but I'll also respond to an email. Which that contact is on my website. Or yeah, you can find me on Instagram to see. a little bit more about kind of like my vibe and what I talk about. I think that at this point is pretty accurate to who I am. So those are kind of the biggest resources I would say that if anyone wants to get connected with me, you can start there. Yes, and ask questions. I am excited to answer more specific questions and talk deeper on some topics in the future.

Carrie Tollefson: And then they can tune in to Run Dot because you're going to be on more podcasts. Yes. Yeah, you want to dig in you like to you like to talk science and the reason behind things. So we'll nerd out. We'll nerd out.

Jillian Tholen: I do, I do. And I'm always learning too. I love an opportunity to really dig into a topic and I usually learn something as well. So I'm excited for that.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Okay. We have one more question and it's a cool down question and this question comes from Justin all the way from Texas. So I don't know. I don't think I have a Texas accent. So I'm not going to try it Justin but It says not training related, but this food situation has befuddled me. I haven't used that word befuddled. I love it. My wife and I have a toddler just like Jillian and one big thing I have heard no one talk about is how much having kids changes the rhythm of your meals. We used to have dinner close to 8 p.m. Now they eat closer to 6 p.m. They're both hungry by the last hour before they go to bed and they find themselves snacking. Help! What is the best way to handle that evening cry for more calories?

Jillian Tholen: That's a good one. Oof. No one does talk about this. How kids really, like he said, alter the rhythm of our meals. Kids alter a lot about our meals. I am absolutely learning that as well. This is a great example of an opportunity for flexibility, not necessarily in choice of food, but in timing, right? So I guess I would get curious about a couple of things here. I would wonder if there are any reasons why Justin and his wife and or his wife feel like maybe they shouldn't eat before bed if they aren't feeling hungry. Because I think my quick answer would be have a snack. Have a good substantial snack before you go to bed. I think sometimes I hear messaging around eating after dinner or eating close to bedtime around this being a bad thing. I kind of rambled there a bit but It's totally fine to eat after dinner, especially if you are training a lot. You might need another meal, especially if you're eating dinner earlier, right? We were talking earlier about eating every three to four hours. If you eat at six and you're going to bed at even nine o'clock or 10, you probably actually do need another snack in there. There is nothing wrong with eating closer to bedtime. The only thing I tell people is probably try to not eat a large, large meal before you're going to lay down. feel very good digestive wise. But there's nothing that happens to our metabolism, let's say, before bed where it slows down. Sleep is a time where our bodies and our brains are very active. That repair, that growth hormone is being produced, it's a really active time. And we don't want to go to bed under-fueled because we can actually negatively impact our sleep quality if we are hungry.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. What is your favorite bedtime? What's your favorite bedtime snack?

Jillian Tholen: So I would say eat a snack. When's our, my bed, my favorite bedtime snack? Cereal with milk, 100%.

Carrie Tollefson: You are a big cereal fan. Favorite cereal right now, go.

Jillian Tholen: I love cereal. love it. Life's life. Plain life. Love it. So good.

Carrie Tollefson: Add a little salt of sugar or no?

Jillian Tholen: No, I love to add, I do like to add strawberries though. I like to add, I like to add stuff to my cereal, but I do, I love life. It's my favorite.

Carrie Tollefson: Little sweet. Okay. Do you want to know my gross bedtime snack? And it's gross like hygiene wise. So I like, I have like my own peanut butter and jelly, or at least my family knows, enter at your own risk. So I will take a scoop of peanut butter, go right into my Smucker's red raspberry jam, dip it, eat it, not the whole thing.

Jillian Tholen: Yes. What? Okay, okay, I'm Uh-huh. Yup.

Carrie Tollefson: Go again. Eat it again. So just if you ever come to the Tulsa Peterson household, maybe don't eat the red raspberry jam because it might have been double, triple, quadruple dipped.

Jillian Tholen: Okay, I get it. I got you. Yep. Okay. Okay, yep. my gosh, that's so good, Carrie. Can I say one more thing about the snack before bed for this particular question? There is some really good research about the benefits for muscular recovery. from eating something that has casein protein closer to bed. And this doesn't, this is not like, this isn't like you have to do this, but casein protein is found in dairy products. including a source of dairy in that bedtime snack actually is a really good idea from that angle. If you don't do dairy, so I'm thinking I should give a couple of examples. Milk and cereal is a great option. Milkshakes, yeah, especially if you have high energy needs, absolutely a milkshake. What else was I gonna say? We are big fans of ice cream around here. I love ice cream and graham crackers, that's my favorite. But then the other one I was gonna say was Greek yogurt and fruit or granola is a really great one as well. Some athletes who are training a ton will make like a full yogurt bowl, I've seen. Like that's been a popular snack with some of my athletes in the past. But the other thing, the last thing I'll say about this is if you're worried about choosing like a good snack, The principle that I would use is include just at least two food groups. So for like milk and cereal, I would think of your milk as your protein and your cereal as your carb. That's an example of two food groups. Or if you had graham crackers and peanut butter. Peanut butter is a fat, your graham crackers are your carb. That's two food groups. You could have yogurt and fruit. Yogurt is your\... Protein, carbs are your color. Or I'm sorry, the fruit is your color. So just thinking along those terms, cheese and crackers, pretzels and peanut butter, an apple and peanut butter, a couple of cookies and milk, a slice of toast with peanut butter, nut butter, something along those lines. And make sure that you aren't hungry before going to bed. Hunger is a neutral signal. Our bodies don't trick us. Hunger is just us, our bodies letting us know that we need something. I would eat another snack. That was a really long-winded answer, I'm sorry.

Carrie Tollefson: I love that. Justin, get your wife and you a good snack before bed. Okay. Thanks, Joe. my gosh, this was so fun. I can't wait to have you back on more Run Dot podcasts.

Jillian Tholen: I am excited to come back too. I have a great time.

Carrie Tollefson: Next time we're going to just film while we're eating.

Jillian Tholen: no.