7 Lessons for Runners From Crewing Ultramarathons

Carrie Tollefson: Welcome to the RunDot Podcast. When a runner takes on a big time ultra race, it is common for them to have a support crew go along for the ride. And today we have our coach who's joined us on a number of other RunDot podcasts. And she's gonna tell us all about seven things that she learned from crewing other athletes to the ultra finish line. Our coach is Elizabeth James. She's a professional triathlete. She's a twenty-five-time marathon finisher and she's been coaching runners and triathletes for over a decade. You don't even look that old, EJ, but EJ, welcome back to the RunDot Podcast.

Elizabeth James: Well, thank you so much for having me back. It is just great to be here again.

Carrie Tollefson: I can't wait to get into this. But first of all, I'm Carrie Tollefson, Olympian broadcaster and your guide to the world of RunDot. We treat each show like any good workout. We'll start our warm start with our warm-up question. We'll settle into our main set conversation, and then we'll wind things down by having Coach Elizabeth answer an audience question on the cooldown. Lots of good stuff today. So let's get after it. All right, EJ. So let's start with our warm-up question. And I kinda like this one, but I had to guess your answer is straightforward, I think. Mine is all over the place. So if you had to do all of your runs in one shoe model for the rest of your life, what shoe would you choose?

Elizabeth James: Yeah, the I saw this question and this was an easy answer for me because I've been wearing the same shoe model for the past 17 years. so yeah, the Wave Inspire from Mizuno. It is my go-to shoe. it's the shoe that I wore all the time before I realized that there were benefits to like having more than one pair of shoe. but I still have two to three pairs that work their way through the weekly rotation based on the session. I mean, it's my tried and true. I mean, goodness, we were talking about how long I've been coaching, but this shoe I've worn for almost two decades. That makes me feel older. but yeah, I don't see that changing any time s anytime soon. I love it.

Carrie Tollefson: Wow. Well, I love that you have that one shoe and a lot of people do. I mean, a lot of people are like, you know, I don't even like it when it changes colors or season to season. They like buy a few and like, you know, they're really stuck with it. But for me, I would Is that you? Yeah. You have your favorite color, you get a bunch of

Elizabeth James: Not the yeah. When there's a color scheme I love, I I've been known to buy five pairs. I'm like, yep, here we go. Build up the card. yeah. Yep.

Carrie Tollefson: I love it. Yes, yes. Or if it goes on sale, you know, you're like, I'm gonna, you know, put a lot I mean, and too, the other question is how long do you wear a shoe or keep it on the shelf? Like, there's all kinds of things. And even though I was a professional runner for so long and I worked in, you know, shoe stores and obviously had to study the shoes when I was competing more so than I do now, I I still kind of think like I don't follow the rules. Like I have shoes on in my basement that have are probably like seven years old that I probably shouldn't wear, but I'm not throwing them away and I will wear them someday. So you know don't maybe always listen to this gal. But my favorite shoe, if I had to choose one, what is the Adidas Adi Zero Bostons. I really like them. I feel like they're light enough for, you know, speed workouts, even like sprint workouts. And I also I like going for a long run in them. But I think the way that I've been the last few years, EJ, is I get shoes 'cause I go to different events or whatever. So I get different brands all the time. And my feet actually feel like they like that. They like switching it up. So I haven't just been wearing one pair like I used to for years. Now I wear all of the different things. But lots of love and shout out to this three stripes because they've been so good to me over the years. Let's get into the main set now because we have lots of fun things to do. And you are fresh off of a trip to the Western States 100-mile endurance run, which was so fun to watch this last weekend. I was kind of following the whole day. It's a long race. Two new course records, like crazy fast stuff. But you're part of a support crew for an athlete. So tell us about your adventures this past weekend.

Elizabeth James: Mm. Yeah, gosh, it's gonna be tough to put into words just how amazing this was. But I think for our audience members, if you think of this like the Super Bowl of ultra running, that helps put it into context a little bit with just how amazing the athletes are that run this race and the hype that surrounds the event. I mean, for me, goodness, I'm hoping that I can still make like coherent sentences because I'm still sleep deprived and just on this. major high and adrenaline rush from being there. but yeah, this this year I I was crewing. I was actually supposed to be pacing like the last thirty miles with my runner, but I'm currently on crutches from an injury. So yeah, switch from pacer duties to crew duties, but still was, my gosh, humbled to be a part of it. And the runner that I was crewing, he's been wanting to do this race for eight years. So this was a long time coming. I mean years and years of hard work in the making and just an incredible opportunity for him to be on the starting line. And it was super special because a the crew that we had has been with him throughout a number of these events. And so it was kind of like a celebration for all of us and to get to see him do this after all the events that we've been with him at was just extra special. And then yeah, I mean, you know, that's just him, but talk about everybody else. I mean we were quite the fans as well. It's like, who cares if we're getting to the aid stations early and can watch everybody come through? So it just amazing. Amazing.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. I mean, big names at this race and a lot of people were, you know, tuning in. But so cool that you really had like a personal investment there too. Like you have been training, like you said, with your friend that that race. Like, let's talk about how this has become part of your training as well. I mean it's yes, his race, but you have to train for this. You have to be ready for it. So talk about how it's been part of your running journey. And also, do you have other ultra events that you've been at or Is the western states your first crewing experience?

Elizabeth James: Yeah, yeah. so the guy that was running his name is Mark and he is a wonderful training partner for me. when I first moved to Texas, I got to know Mark as the run club lead at our gym. And at the time, I mean he was kind of like the epitome of like the ultra guy. he'd been to Boston, he'd been to Kona, he was somebody that I just looked up to a lot in terms of his training advice. and through the run club, we got to be just very frequent training partners. I mean, you spend a number of hours together as you're training for different events. we also have a very similar personality and just get along super well. And so, you know, being in the same proximity, hours and hours of running together, we just got to be really good friends. and gosh, it was probably about seven years ago now. Mark was really moving from Iron Man racing into the ultra scene. And he had asked me to pace him at the Leadville 100. And I mean, the way that he put it, he's like, hey, you know, would you do the last like 40 miles with me at Leadville? And I was like, what the heck? Like I've done marathons. Yeah. And like I know I do Ironmans, but 40 miles on my feet. I was like, I don't know if I'm ready for that. And Right, exactly. And at altitude, and we're gonna climb and like, yeah, let's see how your quads do on the downhills. but gosh, like he was

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. And at ten thousand feet, by the way, just like or fourteen thousand, whatever it is. Yeah. Right.

Elizabeth James: He was just so confident that all of my Iron Man training would carry over well. And he's like, you know, I I just think that it'll be a good thing, you know. We'll work it in with your triathlon training and it'll just be, you know, like a long, a long Saturday. You're used to those anyway. And I was like, okay, Mark, like let's see how this goes. he was right, as he usually is. it went so well, and I had so much fun supporting him in that event. And from there, I think it went well for me. It went well for him. and so we just kind of kept it going. I've actually done a number of ultras with him since. I I've lost count of how many like I've done with him because he's done even so many more. 'cause he he's really good about fitting it in with my racing schedule. And so there's some that I miss, some that he's like, Hey, what's your doing this weekend? I was like, that's like a weekend before I'm racing. I I don't think that's a good idea. But yeah, I've been able to pace at like another Leadville. I did Badwater 135 with him, the Fat Dog 120 up in Canada. Super awesome, super hard. Keys 100 down in Florida, Burning River, the Mogollon Monster. and then yeah, coming off the weekend at Western State. So I've done a number of like those big ones with them, which has been super, super cool.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. Mm-hmm. my gosh. That is cool. I mean, I wonder how he plans his life. Like, 'cause I keep thinking of you when as you're talking about, and I know you do this too. But I'm like, how do you do that? Like this is a huge undertaking, and then it's not just him. It's a you know, well how many people are on your crew?

Elizabeth James: So we usually have him and then four to five others.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, it's a big it's a big production. my goodness. Okay. Well, we're gonna get into the learnings. We wanna learn seven different things about crewing. So we are first gonna start with learning number one, and that is know the course better than you think you need to. So we're just gonna dive right in here and learn all the things of in the mind of an actual crew. And you've all also done some of these ultra races yourself. So you've had crew members too. But let's start off as a crew member. Know the course better than you think you need to. Talk about that.

Elizabeth James: Yes. So especially with these, I mean, long distance ultra events, they, you know, span a great number of miles. And you need to know not only like how many miles it is between different crew points and when you might be able to see your runner, but also what the terrain is like in between those points too. and I mean, for example, Mark is just an excellent climber. I mean, on these mountain races, he can climb super well. he is actually a better climber than he is descending, especially if something is loose rocks. And so we always need to plan for like not only how many miles are between the aid stations, but then what type of terrain it is and how his pacing might be affected by that terrain. what's interesting too is that when the runner is going, you know, five miles between aid stations. That's not necessarily how long the car needs to travel to get from one place to the other because the car isn't going on, you know, those trails that the runner is following. there have been so many times where we have to pick and choose which aid stations we can go and support Mark at because he's gonna make it to the next aid station before we can logistically drive around the mountain and access specific roads to get there. And so there's a lot of math involved. Which to be honest, you know, as a former math teacher, I kind of love. And when I was still teaching and like my students would be like, Why do we need to know this? I'd pull out my whole like, well, this weekend I'm pacing my friend Mark, and we have to use math to figure out how fast he's going and how many miles this is. And so like I could easily whip that out and be like, math's important. Like, do your homework. but yeah, it's super interesting to plan out the whole race, know not only how far. the aid stations are and where you can crew, but then which roads are open and what type of terrain you're gonna be driving on. this was a this was a hard lesson for me. The very first year that I paced at Leadville, I mentioned I did the last 40 miles. Well my husband actually did the first 10 where you could pace. And that was up and over Hope Pass. Now you don't get a pacer there anymore and it's probably because the road is so terrible and inaccessible. what I was driving out on this Jeep Road. We didn't have like the insight yet in terms of all of this know the course stuff. So I had a tiny little four-door car, rental car, and I was absolutely terrified that I was not gonna make it back to my pacing duty spot because going on this Jeep Road to drop my husband off, going back, I mean, I'm hitting potholes like crazy. It's like halfway like side of the road. I was like I'm not gonna make it back. This is terrible. And if I break down no cell phone signal, like so that was a that was a quick learning right away. Like, you know, four wheel drive is helpful. satellite phones are a great investment for your crew as well, because you're up there and you don't know what it's gonna be. so yeah, like there's a lot of detail and knowing where to be when There are some spots along the course where you're not allowed to crew. And if you do interact with your runner, you actually get them disqualified. And so you have to really know the course, know the terrain, know what roads you're gonna be on, what the runner's gonna be on. And the planning part of this, I mean, takes weeks. We'll sit down with course maps, with topography charts, with road closures, And it's a it's a big project. I love it, it's fun, but the time investment that goes in ahead of time is crucial. And on race day, like your runner your runner shouldn't be worried about all of that. Like you sit down and you plan with your runner ahead of time, but on race day all they need to think about is moving forward and getting to the next aid station. They don't care and they don't need to know that it's gonna take you four hours to drive around the mountain to see them, you know, twenty miles later. they're just hoping you're there. And so you gotta figure out how to make it happen.

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm. We had my kids and I were Charlie, my husband's crew at Leadville for the mountain bike race. And I think we didn't do any of this. We were like, you know, calling him on his cell phone. You couldn't answer because that you know nothing was coming through and we were just like, Where's Dad? And after we got through the first time, like then we were better the second time he went out there, but my gosh. We were the worst. So y I'm learning from you as we go.

Elizabeth James: Okay. It sounds like my first time out at Leadville too. I was like, sure, like I'll go pace you, no problem. Like, like we gotta do a little recon. Or like a lot of recon. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yes. Yes. I can see where the teacher comes in right here and you really kind of plan and have your pro your you know programs or whatever what's the word that you guys do as teachers. You have your plans. Your plans for the your lesson plans. There it is. Okay, learning number two. Let's go into that. Pack for every version of the day. I like this one.

Elizabeth James: Yes. Yeah, like the lesson plan. Uh-huh. Yes, this this to me, like we did a good job of this from the beginning, but the more and more races that I've done with Mark, it just hammers this one home. Because as a runner is out there for, I mean, twenty-four, maybe thirty hours, the weather is gonna change. And especially if it's a race that has changing terrain. so for example, Leadville, like the weather at mile 60 might be nothing. like what they're gonna experience at mile 80 or 90. it was the second year that I was pacing Mark at Leadville and it was snowing on top of the mountain passes. So there we are in August, like coming from you know, August in Texas, you're not really thinking like, I should probably pack like a winter coat and hat and some gloves. I mean thankfully we did, but like we're on top of the mountain pass and we are putting on a coat, long pants, like gloves with hot hands in them, a winter hat. And you know, going through the snow. And then as we're descending down the mountain, coming back toward Leadville, it's 60 degrees. And so then we're packing everything back up. We're back in shorts and singlets. And so yeah, you've got to pack for a wide variety of weather and understand how that's gonna change with the terrain. I mean, there's different situations like this, like for Keys 100 and Badwater 135. I those are open, exposed, and major sunburn possibilities. So our full crew would have sun shirts to wear throughout the daytime hours. I mean during the night when it's not sunny like you could you could go down to a singlet but anytime the sun was out, I mean we needed full like sun protection. And so a sun shirt like a hat with a flap down the back or like a big bucket hat was necessary. And you're just making sure that you take all of those things into consideration because if you're, you know, climbing and we did this, we were climbing, it was a huge rainstorm, and you can't afford for the pacer or the runner to get too cold and risk hypothermia. And you have to be aware of those things, whether it's super hot or super cold or being able to change back and forth in between. so you do need to look at the possibilities for that. I mean, this year at Western States, it was one of the coldest years that they had. I mean, typically this is super hot and you see a lot of people struggling with heat exhaustion, heat-related illness. in the morning, I mean, everybody was like in a jacket. And you know, some people had gloves and hats, and that first climb up to Immigrant Pass. I mean, you're 5 a.m. and it's cold and I mean it was it was in the high 30s when they started. That's not typical. And so you've got to be ready for all those different scenarios and pack more than you would think you would need. It’s so interesting too, with you know, not only packing for the different weather changes, but there's a lot of ultras that have required gear lists that either the runner needs to be carrying with them. Or that the crew has to have. And so for example, Keys 100, like the runner has to have specific things on them, but then your crew van is also required to carry a specific amount of liquid hydration at any point. And the race organizers can stop your van, do a check. And if you don't have that, then your runner is disqualified because it's just a safety concern. And so you have to make sure that you Have, I mean, a crew vehicle that can accommodate all of those possibilities and then equip your runner with what they're gonna need. honestly, this is another thing where I I just love I like get into the details of it because your crew vehicle is a rolling like supply store. And so it's so neat to see how everybody has this organized. I mean, most everyone's got like a big cooler, you've got some bins for the gear. But then, I mean, some crews are fully decked out with like plastic drawers that are labeled for like, you know, shoes for aid station one, shoes for so if a runner's switching shoes or socks, then they've got like tackle boxes that are all the different like blister care possibilities or you know, band-aids and you know, things if there's a more serious injury. So there's a lot of things that are necessary to have, but then you're Crew van also needs to be equipped with like, what if something goes wrong? And do we have those things to help our runner in an appropriate way? So

Carrie Tollefson: Mm. I wonder if people like that are as organized as you've been talking like, do they get that all when they you know, if it's a destination type run where they're not right in their home city or home state where they drive all that to, or do most people drive all of that, you know, out to an event? How I suppose you get both.

Elizabeth James: Right. You do get both. I mean, you have the runners that have like their big sprinter vans and y you know, they've got they've got everything in there and it probably doesn't move much throughout the season. but then you have other people that are flying to those destinations. gosh, Mark's wife and I have made numerous Walmart runs to buy some of these things. It's like, okay, what can we bring? And then what's our Walmart list for when we get there? And like How many bins and plastic drawers do we need and band-aids and stuff so that we're eliminating all of that to fly on the plane? yeah, it's I mean a whole nother, you know, piece of the puzzle of are you flying, are you driving? How much can you take with you? What do you need when you get there? And yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot.

Carrie Tollefson: Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm sure they're I'm sure they get a lot of donations to those cities like Leadville after all of that. No, you can't. Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth James: Yes. Exactly. 'Cause you're not gonna take that all with you on the plane. So the runners that drive get a lot of extra supplies or the you know, the race organizer does too.

Carrie Tollefson: For sure. Okay, learning number three. Your runner needs calories and specificity, not cheerleading. So let's hear that. I like that. We wanna know, I mean, you he you see the athletes and you see how focused they are. Some need, you know, people right in their face, like, you got this, some just need like what can we do with you? What what do you need us to do? Like it's a you a fine line of how you pump your athlete up and support them.

Elizabeth James: Yes, yeah, it really is. And the way that I thought of this is like generic encouragement is less useful to a runner kind of the further they're getting into that than like specific things. now certainly, you know, there's a time and a place for you to be encouraging. And I'm not saying like don't pump up, but you know, if you just say like, you've got this that mile seventy, they're thinking, I've still got like 30 miles to go if they're in a hundred. Like that doesn't sound that great. You know, it's kind of like the person that's like, you're almost there at mile two of the marathon. You're like, no, not even close. Like we got a long day ahead of us. and this is something that just kind of has evolved the more that I've actually been pacing more than anything. so when I'm with Mark, this goes back to knowing the course. It's like telling him, okay, we have 5.5 miles until the next aid station. This climb is gonna be 1.2 miles long. Like we're gonna, you know, climb 500 feet. and so giving him something very specific to focus on. Or, hey, we really need to hit this mile under like a 13-minute pace while we're climbing. Like we gotta go. Or for him, I mean, one of the things that's most challenging is descending on loose rock. And so it's like, Hey, this area does have some loose rock. Like, we're probably gonna take this mile slower, and that's okay because we've got, you know, two miles up ahead where it's on a paved road, we're connecting between trails, so don't worry about the time loss here. And so very specific things like that are helpful for him to kind of understand how things are flowing together. And of course, he's looked at the course, but by mile 70, he can't remember which part is what and I mean, he's just like, okay, I need to make sure that I stay upright and keep eating. so it's really important to know those specific things to give the runner. And then kind of same thing when Mark was coming into the cruise stations this last weekend at at Western States. I mean, we were all super excited to see him and we're like, my gosh, he's doing great. And that's good. But we need to ask them critical questions in those couple minutes that we have with him. It's like, when did you last eat? Like How many ounces have you had since the last aid station? Like, let's see the bottles that you had. We're calculating, like, okay, that was great. You drank enough. Here's your new bottle. Like, this needs to be gone by the time you see us again. Or if he hasn't had enough, then I mean, we may have him take more at that crew station before we even send him off again. And I mean, that's often what it is. It's like, okay, here's your bottle. You drink this and then you're allowed to leave us. Like. You got to stay on top of that. And so that's much more helpful for him continuing on with the day than us to say, like, good job. Like, yay. Woohoo. It's like, no, what do you need? When did you last eat? Do you have any spots that are chafing? You know, okay, you don't have any sunscreen on yet. So close your eyes. We're spraying you down. Like, here's some chapstick. and so yeah, just having everything ready and it's like a it's like a NASCAR pit crew.

Carrie Tollefson: That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth James: no, because I was on crutches this last time, there were a couple aid stations where I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna be in charge of getting some photo and video for this one. And it was so fascinating for me to see our crew just quickly work. I mean, really, like Mark came in and basically it was like old bottles out, new bottles in, chapstick on, spray them with sunscreen, like drink this, eat that, like are your shoes good? All right, no shoe change, and go. And it's like less than two minutes and he's got a full like swap of gear, liquid, nutrition, and then and then he's off again. And it yeah, it really reminds me of NASCAR. So be a NASCAR pit crew not the cheerleader. What's that?

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. That's wild. Do you go back after? Yeah, yeah, right. Do you go back after and ever see how long those transitions are? Like, you know how in triathlon that's a big thing, right? Is you try to see how much you can, you know, taper that down a little bit. Is it the same for Ultra?

Elizabeth James: Yes. Yep. Yes, but it does depend on how the runner is doing and kind of what their goal is too. And so if things are going really well and we're able to make that like a NASCAR pit crew and quick off and go, fantastic. If there's an issue where like he's starting to get a really bad hot spot on his foot, like we will take additional time and it's like, all right, sit down, shoes off, socks off, like here's new socks, here's new shoes. And so There are some of those decisions to be made at the cruise stations of like, what can we do now that's going to help him in the next 10 miles? And if it can be quick, fantastic. But if we need to take a little more time at one of those cruise stops to make sure that something doesn't become a bigger issue later, like if we notice, why are your bottles still full? Like, then it might be something where we need to evaluate how he's doing, what has been your intake and take a little longer at that stop. some races it's super cool. They have timing mats at the beginning and the end of aid stations. And so you can actually see what that time is. So you know, like, all right, they're coming in to I mean, they didn't have that this weekend, but like coming into Forest Hill, leaving Forest Hill, like what was that time gap? other times like we'll put a timer on it and just kind of gauge that because then that also helps us in our planning for his pacing and when to be at the next one. Because we have to factor in how long he was stopped as well. So yeah. Again, lots of math. The math teacher in me loves this. It's like, we have all of these things we need to calculate.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I know, I know. It's not just left, right, left, right. There's a lot that goes into this. Okay. Learning number four. I'm interested in this one. Learn to read the difference between hard and wrong. So what does this mean?

Elizabeth James: Yes. Yes. I mean the truth is that every ultra runner is gonna look terrible at some point. I mean it sounds it sounds bad, but honestly, it's normal. You know, they they're going for anywhere from, you know, like 13 to 30 hours, depending on the course, depending on how fast they're going. It it's a full day, if not more than an entire day. so for them to have some low points and to look like they're just fatigued or wiped out is completely expected on a race like this. But what we really need to look for as the crew or as the pacer that's with them is for warning signs that go beyond just like fatigue and a little suffering that we know is gonna happen. so things like being really confused, not knowing where they are, not knowing what they're doing. the inability to hold down any food or any water that they just can't keep anything in their body. like really unusual gait changes, if, you know, slow and moving forward is fine. But if they're starting to swerve or not be able to hold themselves upright, you know, that's worrisome. And then that kind of just like absent or glazed effect again, where they're not really present. Those are all Things that go beyond just that usual fatigue. And for me, this came up that very first time I paced in Leadville. And I typically do the overnight sections with Mark. And he was really, really struggling to stay awake, even as he was walking. He was falling asleep as he was moving forward on the trail. And I had never experienced anything like that before. I mean, first time that I'm out there doing anything like this, and I'm thinking, like, all right, cool, like a little walk in the woods. And I'm like, crap, like he is falling asleep. I see nobody around. It's dark. All I see are like eyes in the woods. And I'm like, if he falls asleep, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And so I'm like, that was the big realization for me of like, I need to understand what to do in situations like this and how to handle them. Now on that one, thankfully we were less than a mile from an aid station. And so I was like, Mark, you gotta stay awake. I mean, kind of like tapping his face. I'm like, come on, buddy, like we're gonna make it to the aid station. We're gonna get in some more calories, get in some caffeine. His wife was there, which was super reassuring to me. So I could be like, Here's the situation. Like, what do I do? Are we good? Yeah, like help. yeah, that was like eye-opening for me in terms of like I need to understand what some of these warning signs are and how to handle them.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Here he is. Take him. No, just kidding. Yeah.

Elizabeth James: So that I can make sure that he's safe. Like, you know, pacing sounds fun and great, and it is until you're in a situation like that where you're really concerned about the safety of the person that you're with and needing to make critical decisions like that. I mean, honestly, pacing is one of the reasons that I renew my first aid and my CPR every time it comes up. I do a lot of remote coaching, so I'm not a with a lot of my like coached athletes on a daily basis, but I mean, my training partners, when I'm out there pacing or crewing, I feel a responsibility to know how to handle situations like that. it's super cool. There's actually now some courses that are designated for crew members and pacers for ultras, where you can go and basically get certifications in terms of like wilderness first aid and warning signs for runners and what do you do if X, Y, and Z happens, and how do you mitigate some of these issues? So I've looked into that. I've done a lot of like research and some like reading. There's a couple books that other crew members and pacers have written. those have been great resources, but that's kind of next on my list to actually go and do the certification just so that I know that difference between what is hard for him and what is a safety concern. Cause you are expected to know the difference.

Carrie Tollefson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's such a great point. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's brilliant. And I mean, even in the running world right now, they were on a track. But you know, the great Jenny Simpson who, you know, she's an Olympic medalist, a world champion. Like she had a heart event at an event and thank goodness so many athletes knew how to, you know, aid to her get to her aid right away and used an AED and the ambulance came. But I mean, we all need to have that. So I'm thankful that you said that. C P R was one thing, but even just general aid is so important. So first aid is so important. learning number five. Let's go keep going because we have a couple more really good ones after this. Silence is a legitimate form of support. I really think this is important. And this is not only important just in ultra running. I think it can be across all sports, maybe all things of life too. It just sometimes you gotta pick your words wisely.

Elizabeth James: Mm. Yes. Yes. Yes, yeah, yeah. And no words is just fine. I mean, not every moment needs words and sometimes the best thing is just having somebody else there. I love how you said, you know, this crosses over into just life as well. Like sometimes you don't even need anybody to say something. You just need them to sit there with you. And I find that this has been a key part of when I've been pacing. I was fortunate enough to pace Mark for the last fifty miles of his Burning River race. And I can guarantee you we did not talk for fifty miles. Like

Carrie Tollefson: I know you often wonder, like, don't they talk the whole time? Like what do they say? Telling jokes, telling stories. Right.

Elizabeth James: Yeah. It's like what would we talk about? Now I will say we will often try to not talk for like three weeks going into a race. So we have all these stories built up. but you know, you're still gonna run out of things to say. Or even if you don't, sometimes there's just moments where you don't need to say anything. And that was the case here in this race. he just needed, you know, the company. And we'd say things here once in a while. Honestly, a lot of Burning River was just making sure that we were on course. And so as we'd see the markers, I'd be like, course marker up ahead. It'd probably be silent for another 15 minutes until it's like, course marker right there. Okay, we're on we're on track. And you know, just enough to know that he's awake, coherent, you know, he would respond like, yep, see it, yep, got it. but you do you don't need to be talking the whole time. It also depends on like how hard everybody's working. I mean, there are sections where Mark's running fast and I'm running fast, and we don't need to be, you know, using extra energy to talk. It's like we just gotta go. and so, you know, pointing things out, nodding, just course markers, that's a great thing to do. one of the things that I found super interesting is that in in reading a couple of these books about crew members and pacers, they said, you know, don't project your anxiety onto your runner. I mean, you are worried about them, you are wanting them to do well, but you don't need to put some of that thought in their head either. Like you don't want to say, you seem really tired. Are you sure you're okay to keep going? Like that's not helpful for them. And so, you know, in that case, it's probably much better to keep that thought to yourself, keep your mouth shut and just know like, hmm, they look really tired. I wonder how I can support them in this moment. And just being that calm and confident presence is much more helpful than being a chatter box or being like, like you you're really tired or like, you tripped on another route. Like, hmm, maybe we should take a little longer at the next aid station. Pick up your feet. Like sometimes, you know, you just be quiet. Like they know what's going on too. They know it's hard. They know that they're, you know, in in a little bit of a little hurt locker. but having somebody there to do it with them is really meaningful.

Carrie Tollefson: And I think that leads into learning number six, which is have a plan for the hard conversation. I mean, there are times where you're gonna have to talk them off of that cliff, right? You're gonna have to walk them through certain times that are really tough. Get them through those moments where they're sleeping while they're walking. I mean, all those things. So let's hear what your plan is for those hard conversations.

Elizabeth James: You Yeah. I think the best advice I can give for this is like talking it out with everybody that's involved with the race ahead of time and really having the runner lead this conversation of like, here's what would be helpful for me when it gets hard, because it will. And then really knowing, you know, what they have as kind of their line that's drawn of like. when this is no longer safe. I'm very fortunate that a lot of the races that I've been with Mark at, like his wife is also there. And so she kind of has like that ultimate decision power if she sees him and is like, this is this is not okay. Like I need to pull him. and so I mean I I feel a little bit of a relief there because ultimately like you know Mark has a decision of if he's gonna keep going, if things are not going well, I can lean on his wife and say, like, here are the things that I'm seeing, here are my concerns, like, are you okay with him continuing or do we need to call something? I mean, thankfully we have not been in that situation, but it's something that we do discuss before every race because ultimately, like, you know. one race is not worth his safety and him being able to continue to do this for years and years to come. And so knowing in advance like what the runner is comfortable with in terms of pushing what their family's comfortable with in terms of what that line is and then what to do if we do have concerns beyond that is important. Because yeah, I mean there will be hard moments in the course, but it kind of goes back to like what's hard and what's wrong. Like when we cross that r line of wrong, like what is our action plan to make sure that ultimately, like, he's safe if that's we need to pull him off the course, we need to contact his wife, we need to make those tough decisions. and I think that, you know, the best crews out there do always have the runner's safety in mind. And that trust is earned well before race day. I mean, oftentimes, you know, the crews and the pacers that are there, they know these people well. They're very much invested in in their health and safety. And so they want to see them be successful. And whether that's successful crossing the finish line that day, or it's, hey, we need to look at the bigger picture here and call this one quits and be successful for the long term with your health and safety and come back another time. but yeah, it's not a fun thing to think about, but you wanna have a plan for that before it's mile eighty five in the pitch black and you're like, crap, what do we do? 'Cause we're in trouble now.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you never want to go into a race having to think about what if I have to drop out, right? You don't want to think about that. But in these long kind of extreme situations, you have to have that plan. And obviously you all are so good and you know your athletes so well to read their physical signs, hear what they're communicating back to you and maybe what they aren't communicating back to you. I think that that's so smart too. And sounds like, you know, he's got a really good eye on who he has with him. at these races. He has to be very comfortable with you all. I like this last one, learning seven. Take care of yourself so you can take care of them, of the athlete that you're crewing for. So how do you do that?

Elizabeth James: Yes. Yes. I mean this is gosh, what what's that cliche? Like you can't pour from an empty cup. I think this one really applies here because there's no way that you can take care of the runner if you are in a bad state. Now, I mean, I'll admit

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, we do not want them having to kick take care of you. Like that is not the point. No.

Elizabeth James: Right. Exactly. Yeah, that that's not how this is supposed to work. and I I mean, I'll admit, like, crewing and pacing is tough. Like I I'm still exhausted from Western States this last weekend. I mean, we had we had terrible travel getting there too. And so we didn't get in until like gosh, it was like two AM California time. So it would have been like three AM time in Texas the day before. And then we're checking in and everything. I mean, we get about like three or four hours of sleep going into race day. And then we're pulling an all-nighter. And so it's like, man, like I've gotten less sleep like in three days than I usually would in one night. Like that's tough. so crew fatigue, pacing fatigue, like that's real, especially in these long day events. And so I mean, the crew really needs to like get along and be there to support one another. you know.

Carrie Tollefson: Getting everything ready, yep. Right. Yeah. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth James: Eat as is like when you can, like sleep in shifts, stay hydrated. Like part of the crew van and the crew materials need to be enough to take care of the people that are taking care of the runner as well. when I'm when I'm pacing, I often don't go to the start. And Mark is so great about this. because I'm usually like one of the later pacers or I mean In some events, I'm the only pacer. If he can have a pacer for the last forty miles or last fifty miles, oftentimes I will do that. And the rest of the crew is there to kind of support him as the runner and support me as the pacer. I won't go to the start. And so some of the crew members will take him for the early morning start. I'll stay at the Airbnb and I'll sleep. And I'll be there, I'll eat my own breakfast, go for a short walk, do some mobility work in the morning, and really get ready for kind of my run. On Mark's crew, we usually have one person that's designated to take care of the pacer or the pacers as well. And so when we're coming into aid stations, you know, we have somebody that's really focused in on Mark, what do you need? Let's make sure that he's ready, you know, that NASCAR pit crew. but we also have somebody that's designated to take care of me. And oftentimes my husband is part of the crew as well. And so that that gets to be his job. Like he's the one taking care of me. Mark's wife is taking care of him, the other crew members, you know, helping with Mark. and so he's making sure, my husband's making sure that I'm good to go for, you know, the next 10, 20 miles as well. Because if I'm in a world of hurt, then I'm not going to be helpful to Mark. And so it it's really important that you have a crew that gets along well, that understands each other, you know, that can work through difficulties when everybody is sleep deprived and hungry. and problem solve.

Carrie Tollefson: Ha ha Hmm. Yeah. Have those hard conversations with everyone.

Elizabeth James: Yeah. Yes, exactly. So it's such an amazing experience, but it is draining. And I think, you know, that's one of the things that I've realized more and more is just how fortunate we are to have a well working crew that that gets along, that really is looking out for each other. I mean, we'll take turns napping in the back of the car and somebody'll go get food, making sure that everybody else is ready to go. If somebody can stay at the house for a section and rest because they're needing them for the next few aid stations, we really prioritize that. So yeah, you have to take care of yourself.

Carrie Tollefson: Sounds so fun. Yeah. I mean it is. It's fun, but it's a lot and it's a lot of planning and I can remember, you know, watching Charlie. He hasn't done an Iron Man now in a couple of years, but even just standing there watching him, not crewing even, just being that support on the side and your head is going like this, watching for him, you know, for like twelve thirteen hours, whatever. I can't remember what his best is, but I mean and then you miss if you miss them, which you won't do so much. You have a number of people watching for your one athlete. But when you are kind of on your own watching It's a lot on the support crew. I got caught once, EJ, on I had like a video camera. We'd have our phones and I had a video camera and I got caught complaining about my aching legs because I'd been standing for like eight hours, you know, or whatever. So, you know, maybe don't do that in front of your athlete. Don't complain about how hard it is to watch them.

Elizabeth James: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and I had to catch myself a little bit this last time because as I as I mentioned for this one I was on crutches. And so I mean, my hands were so blistered. I did not expect that. I mean, I haven't been on crutches since high school. And so here I am, like on crutches, getting to the aid stations. I'm gonna make it happen, gonna make it work. But I was like, my gosh, like my hands are so blistered and but I'm not gonna say a darn thing because Mark's feet are full of blisters and he's got, you know, twenty more miles to go. So

Carrie Tollefson: I gotta get Did you? Yeah. Right. Yes. Right? He Yeah

Elizabeth James: Yep, you just zip it and do the best you can. Yes.

Carrie Tollefson: Zip it. Yep. Just bite your tongue. I know that you're injured right now, which I'm sorry about, but I I also feel like a lot of times when we have those big injuries, we we're better athletes for it. So I hope that you come out on the other side even stronger. But do you have an ultra on your mind? Do you wanna do any races coming up?

Elizabeth James: Okay. gosh, yes. I mean the only ultras that I technically have to my name are I did a 50K out in Fort Worth, like one of the first years we moved to Texas. and then pacing Mark on the back half of the 50 for Burning River technically counts. it's actually how he got me to pace him that long. I don't think I would have agreed to 50 miles anyway, but he's like, surprise, like the pacers for the back half fifty actually get this counted as a race. So I signed you up for the back half fifty. And I was like, my gosh, that was sneaky. Cause now that I'm signed up for the race, you know I'm gonna do it. super cool. So I I technically have those two, but yeah, the hundreds, I have had my eye on that for the last few years. I feel like, you know, I'm like invested in triathlon, but I've got this wandering eye over here to Ultras. And I just need to kind of make that decision of like when I'm gonna swap the TT bike for more miles like in the dirt. I mean, I love gravel biking, I love trail running. I really see that as a shift for me. I'm just not sure when because I love all of it. Like I'm not quite ready to fully give all my time to the dirt. still love triathlon, but I'd I'm invested enough to do some gravel bike races and continue pacing mark. I think it's great learning. I feel like I will be so much better equipped when I do take that jump into the ultra scene with all of the experience I have with him.

Carrie Tollefson: For sure. Well, that's so exciting. And he is so lucky to have you. I could just see, and your husband and the rest of his crew. I can just see how much fun he has knowing that he can do his race, but he has great people in his corner. So bravo. Congratulations on an awesome weekend for you last thing that we have today is our cool down. So we're gonna do our cool down, which is a question from the audience. And Mindy wrote from Oklahoma. She asked, I'm mostly a roadrunner and do all the local road 5Ks and 10K's. I get invites to weekend group trails most weekends. But to weekend group trail runs, rather most weekends. She wants to know what's the best way to balance an unstructured group trail run with her RunDot training.

Elizabeth James: Aw, yes. Great, great question here, Mindy. love this question. It's something that I I have had to balance as well with trying to figure out, you know, when I'm gonna be on trails, how can I fit that in? Because I love it, but yeah, it, you know, you look at RunDot, it doesn't say like go for a trail run today. So how do we fit that in? I personally found that like the trail runs I would go and do as more of a social event made for great aerobic sessions. And so I would often swap out like a zone two day for some fun on the trails. now depending on the terrain and who you go with, I mean, you might be able to swap out a higher intensity day. Like if they're really pushing the pace and your, you know, heart rate is way up in zone four, like okay, that was an aerobic day for you. Like we maybe need to swap out a different session. but I I often let heart rate be my guide on the trails. And so if I'm doing an aerobic session, if I'm trying to stay in zone two, like I I just look at zone two. And it's gonna, you know, fluctuate a little bit with the terrain, but you can keep a nice, easy effort and that's a great session to swap out. I mean, it's social, it's fun, something different. I mean, there's an added benefit of like working all those little stabilizer muscles on the uneven surfaces that you don't often get running on the pavement. So I I found that to be honestly like a little bit of some strength work too. expect some soreness the first few times out there, but enjoy. And I would say, you know, after the first couple times going out with the group, do take a look back at the file. See was this an aerobic day for me? You know, was this higher intensity? And then that will help you dictate maybe where that fits in and what session is most appropriate to swap it out with. And from there it's really just gauging risk versus reward. as I would get closer and closer to like my A races for the year, I wouldn't go out on the trails because the likelihood of me like tripping and falling or stabbing a toe, rolling an ankle would be more likely. But it was a risk I was willing to take, you know, eight weeks out, six weeks out from an event to have that social time. So Definitely there's a time and a place to put it in. and I would say just kind of look at your heart rate on those first couple of times you go out, see what session you can swap it out with, and then enjoy.

Carrie Tollefson: I love that. You hit it all. I mean, I think the thing is is RunDot wants you to still have fun. So if that's your fun, go hit the trails. It's all good.

Elizabeth James: Yes.