How Fitness & Form Determine Your Running Economy

Carrie Tollefson: Today we're talking about all things that make you the runner that you are. I can't wait for this. So, what goes into a run? What goes into our fitness? What makes us good and bad at running in our form and everything? And guess what? We have the world famous run coach Bobby McGee with us today. Bobby has been a run coach for over 40 years, working with everything from high school athletes to Olympic medalists and world champions. Bobby, welcome back to the Rundown Podcast.

Bobby McGee: Hi Carrie, thanks so much for having me. we had a blast last time, I'm sure we'll have a blast now, so thanks for having me.

Carrie Tollefson: I know. I can't wait to get into it. But first of all, I'm Carrie Tollefson. I'm an Olympian, a broadcaster, and your guide to the world of RunDot. We treat each show like any good workout. We'll start with our warm-up question, we'll settle into our main set conversation, and then we're gonna wind things down by having Coach Bobby answer an audience question on the cooldown, and it's a good one today. So lots of good stuff. So let's get after All right, Bobby. The first question is our warm-up. And We want to know who would you say is the most famous runner you've ever met?

Bobby McGee: And the first thing that I wrote down when I thought about this question was that's an unfair question. You should talk about the most you need to talk about the most famous coach I've ever met, maybe, which is Arthur Lydiard. I I got to meet Arthur twice, which was a huge privilege before he passed. but in terms of famous runners, you know, they're more related to the times that I was coaching in in whatever those domains were, you know, I've been with triathlon for a long time now. So it's been a while since I've been, you know, real up close and personal with the running community. But I really enjoyed meeting Ingrid Christensen, the the Norwegian runner. I think she was the first gal under two twenty for the marathon. And King Paul Turgat, the most regal, the most amazing man. Okay. And yeah, I I enju so enjoyed talking to him, just so so refined. He was he was like a king. He was just an incredible person, yeah. And then I also got the privilege of of meeting Herb Elliott, the the the unbeaten Olympic fifteen hundred meter record holder as well as the fifteen hundred meter champion, retired I think at twenty three before, you know, and he was unbeaten a as a as a Mila. He was amazing amazing guy to to meet. and then my two South African favorites, of course, Zola Bud and Josiah Tungwani, you know, I I love those two dearly. So so that's a longer list than you expected and and of course Frank played a huge role. Frank Shorter played a huge role in in getting me to the US and and being able to be a coach in the US so I owe him a huge debt of gratitude. And then Joni Samuelson was is is an amazing lady to be around as well. Absolutely.

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm. It's for sure. Yeah. First woman to win the marathon at the Olympics. The first female or women's marathon. Yep.

Bobby McGee: Yeah. champion, yes, and and just absolutely a legend and a and a groundbreaker, pioneering woman. Yeah, I think lastly and I I met Carl Lewis a couple of times too, which was he's a really interesting man to to to converse with, you know, so he's quite presidential in his manner, you know. So yeah. Yeah. so

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Yeah, he is. I mean, but fun to think of all the athletic ability that he has, but also that he like remember he had a rap video and he had all kinds of things that he would do in life. Now he's coaching and yeah. He is.

Bobby McGee: Yeah. Yeah. No, he he's a very interesting guy, yeah. But if I if I have to think of iconic Olympic moments, you know, him and that what was the I forgot what the Olympic apparel sponsor was in in LA back in in in eighty four, but

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. but Santa Monica Track Club is what I think of, right? Wasn't he in that? Yeah.

Bobby McGee: with him, yeah, yep, yep. With him with Leroy Burrell and those guys. You remember those bronze outfits that they wore in the four by one hundred world record? Amazing. Yeah. No, I've I've been privileged. I've definitely been privileged too.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, huh. Yeah. Yeah. I know really when we were I was writing some things down and even just when we're talking, like I didn't even write Haile Gebra Selassie, like come on. When you said Paul Ter God I'm like, okay. I mean it's really cool.

Bobby McGee: Yep. Yep. Yeah. No, I just I just never met Heiley. but he was definitely in my mind he was the goat and funnily enough my time of becoming interested in mechanics in that way was Heiley had a had a bad great toe on one side. He had a stiff big toe and it emp impacted his gait. It was very, very interesting. and so at that time my model runner was definitely Bekele. You know. he had just broken Heiley's record in the ten thousand and it was pre super shoes and he was I mean he's under twenty six thirty for for ten K and it just

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The Kelly as well. my gosh. Uhhuh. Yeah.

Bobby McGee: Astounding. Yeah. So there were a lot of them.

Carrie Tollefson: think that's what's so cool about our sport is we I mean, you know, I wrote down Hussein Bolt, Allison Felix, Kip Chogay, Jackie Joyner Kirsty, Seb Cole, Michael Johnson. I mean like the names go on and on. You just gave me about ten names. I could give you tons of names too and I we just have the opportunity to be able to rub shoulders with the greatest. And You know, I I my I've told this story time and time again, but my best friend from high school, her son, was the runner-up for rookie of the year for the NBA this year. And just this weekend at the championships, he and his dad were doing some interviewing of the the Spurs and the Knicks, and they got to meet Shaq. Like, you know, meeting people like that in the NBA seems like untouchable for us, right? But when you're in the NBA, you get to rub shoulders with them. And when you're in our world, You get to run sho rub shoulders with the greats and it's it's pretty cool. It's it's really neat. But we also get to run the races with the greats. We don't get to play in the basketball games like the NBA guys. So we're pretty lucky.

Bobby McGee: Yeah. Yes, exactly. The flip the the flip side of that is is I met a lot of people that I really admired at at the time and then time proved them not to be admirable people anymore. So, you know, one doesn't want to mention those. So I've I've I've met a number of those as well, you know. Very so

Carrie Tollefson: really? Yeah. Exactly. I I I have a I didn't even mention Paula Radcliffe. my gosh, we gotta move on because there's so many people.

Bobby McGee: We can have a good chat about people and yeah, yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yes, we Okay, well let's move to the main set. So Bobby, when we talk about runners' ability to run, how strong of an athlete they are or what needs improvement, what are the philosophical no, that's not the right word. Physiological Physiological things you can look at. What makes each runner who they are as a runner?

Bobby McGee: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, that's a that's a a very important question and when I consider coaching an athlete or assisting a coach to coach an athlete, I use a a very broad broad blanket that I call a mem blanket. And mem stands for mind engine mechanics. And that's how I determine where the lowest hanging fruit is for that particular athlete. In most of the times if I'm working with developing athletes, it comes in point number one, the the mind, right? how they think and so on, because the capacity is readily available. But basically, from a physiological standpoint, I'm looking at capacity and economy. Right? So You know, it's so interesting to see how different individuals, especially when you're working with age group athletes, right? To seeing which ones do well because they're economical and which ones do well because they have capacity. They've come from say a soccer background or they've come from a basketball background. So they quite aerobically fit, but they can't go far. You know, they can they can run a ten K, they can run a five K. So and then you know you get your slighter individuals that might Might not have as big a capacity, but they're extremely economical individuals. And then when you get to the superstars, they have both. Right? They have large capacities and they have they have a a huge amount of economy. And we'll get into some of those details, but it's it's that's what what I'm looking at. But the filter is always the mind, right at the top.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, and you said MEM. I like that. I think I think people can always hang on to an acronym like that.

Bobby McGee: Yeah. Yes. Just mind, engine, mechanics, right? So the engine is the nutrition and the fuel and the oxygen delivery and the VO two max and all that sort of stuff. The mind stuff is clear, right? It's the it's the psychological, it's the emotional. And then the mechanics are, you know, where that engine takes the the power to the road, right? So that that's a big difference. So if you have a big engine in cycling other than aerodynamics, you pretty much a good cyclist, right? but in running if you don't have that interface with the road from the cardiovascular ability, you get people with, you know Reinhold Messner, who climbed Everest without oxygen, has a VO2 max in the high eighties, but can't run worth a dam, right? Because he doesn't have the mechanics, hasn't hasn't prepped himself to be a runner, right?

Carrie Tollefson: Right. Well, that's interesting. Have you seen, by the way, to side note, have you seen how many people are climbing Mount Ephras now? It's like crazy.

Bobby McGee: Yeah, it's sad to me now. It's it's become it's become something that I'm now viewing with please stay away from Everest. We're done. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. I mean it's getting so dangerous. So anyway, okay, side note, you and I can go on tangents. We gotta stay we gotta stay on our scrap. Okay s yeah. Okay, so second question. When you begin working with a new runner and start talking about what they need to do to improve, do you find yourself take talking with them more about their form or their fitness? Maybe a bit of both.

Bobby McGee: We we gotta stay on track, right? Yep. Yeah, it's a good question, but the answer is both. and it's normally about the lowest hanging fruit, right? It's it's normally about what is the first limiter when you're peeling the onion that presents itself, right? So w what do you need to look at? So with school kids often, you know, before I knew that much, you know, those first twelve years of coaching high school cross country and track, it was always about the the physiology and training them and learning them teaching them to be tough and and resilient and all that kind of stuff and then just training their little physiologies and their bigger physiologies. So that they could, you know, become fit and then be able to produce a performance out of that fitness. But nowadays it it depends why the person comes to me with with the the older runners, masters runners, stuff like that. It's very often about I got this niggle, I got this, I got that. And it's as they get older, it's pretty clear that their biggest gains are going to be made in economy, not in capacity. And their biggest gains. across the board are going to be made from being consistent. So I'm looking at anything that's limiting their consistency. So whether that's intensity or whether that's mechanics. Right? And then very often because of what I've specialized in, people come to me about their mental game or they come to me about their mechanics. So so you know that's that would be the the long answer to to that question. It depends.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I don't. Depends as hard. I mean, that's like the word for everything we've been hearing the last month or so and we've been doing our podcasts, because there are so many different factors in all of us, and we're all individual. So and I think that's what makes you such a great coach, too, is that you understand that each person is individual. let's talk a little bit about running economy, that term. What exactly is it and what role does it play in our run fitness?

Bobby McGee: Yep. Yeah, so running economy is is a much more modern, not not like last 10 year modern but much more modern term than running capacity. You know, when Fox and Matthews and these guys started doing the research, it was all about cardiovascular, right? So oxygen delivery. And the one with the biggest engine, the one that could use the most amount of oxygen, that kind of thing, was the sole determinant, right? So you had one factor which was who uses the least amount of oxygen at the same pace. That would be the most economical runner. But That picture has become way more complex, right? So you look at taking a old beat-up VW, right, and putting a giant tuned V8 engine into that VW. It's not gonna make the VW go very fast, and it's also the b the VW is gonna break down, right? So both are important. Right, so you have the physiological component of running economy, which is if you have an excise engine, how much of that engine do you need to use? And the one that uses the least amount of that engine to achieve the same intensity is the most economical runner. Right? But the other side, the flip side of that is there's a mechanical component too. You could have an engine which you use less of, so in other words, you're more economical, right? So in distance running in physiological terms, you always talk about fractionalized effort, right? Because the human body can only run flat out for about eight seconds. Right? And then it can only maximally utilize oxygen for somewhere between six and twelve minutes, right? That and then it uses that maximum amount of oxygen. So if your VO2 max is say 55 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute, right? You can use a high percentage of that for an abbreviated period of time. That represents your engine. Anything further than that is fractionalized. Now obviously, the less of that maximum engine you use, the more economical you are. But if your tires are wobbling, all right, and your tires are towed in and your shock absorbers are shot and there's a lot of up and down movement, or your tires are flat and there's you know, you a lot of the energy is going out sideways, all of that is the mechanical side of economy. So you add those together, which is basically training. right at the top of everything sits genetics. Sadly enough in our sport it's filtered through genetics. My my one of my mentors, Tim Nokes, used to say, if you want to be a better runner, you have to go back and re-choose your parents. So genetics sits at the top, but then there's how you train, the muscle fiber types that you have, you know, what specifically you're training for. You're training for a mile, are you training for a marathon, all of those things determine how your economy develops.

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you kinda d touched on the mechanical components of running economy, but is there a way that we can measure our running economy? I mean, there's so many measurements out there now and numbers and all these things. Like, is there some way to do that?

Bobby McGee: Yeah. Yes, there are. And and it's a it's about the quality of your data, right? So the elites are now getting into a great situation where they go, Okay, I'm sponsored by X shoe company, right? And they have two or three offerings in the racing shoe department. Which one's better for me? Right? And that's a nice illustration. of what the mechanical components are, right? So There's there's a neurological component and then there's a biomechanical component, right? So those are the two components that make up mechanical efficiency, and they are two parts of the five parts of running economy, which I spoke about previously. and so when you can measure those, right, then you can see what output does the athlete have relative to the maximum output that they that they are capable of, right? So for example, you can get like form power. So in other words, there's power that the athlete puts out when they're running. You can measure that nowadays with devices, right? Stride makes that beautiful device. That are a little bit more indirect but also still useful, right? But now the power that you put out is that, what is what speed is that power creating? Right? And some of that power goes towards lifting you up and down off the ground. So you you you're going vertically. So that's vertical oscillation. All right. Some of that power is being used to keep you online. So your left foot goes down, some runners go more to the left, or your right foot goes down, some runners go more to the left than others. That's power usage to go left and right and to go up and down. Right? So now that gets subtracted from the power that you have to make you go forward. So if you Can get that which is called form power, right? And you divide your form power by your total power, you get like a form power ratio, which is pretty much what your running efficiency is, your mechanical efficiency. So how do you use Yeah, exactly, exactly. Alright, so if you take it from the the beginning of the stride, right, when you hit the ground.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. I see. And then how do you use that? Yeah, exactly.

Bobby McGee: Okay, you're using so the first part of your stride from the time you hit the ground until your leg gets underneath you is more about protection and loading. Right? So you're putting yourself down softly, you're loading all your connective tissues. Once it gets underneath you from there to your toe off, that's that's your power component. So you can work on both of those, right? So let's say you're running a marathon. You might want to make sure that you have a gate that has a lower impact loading rate. So in other words, it you're not beating yourself up eccentrically as much. But if you're running a 5K or a 10k, it doesn't matter. You want the other end, you want lots of power. Right? So people look at elite runners and they say, wow, look how softly and how gently they run, right? But they're putting their feet down hard. Three, four, five times harder than the average person. They are trying to get that leg spring stiffness. So you can work on how you move your limbs, so reduce your braking, reduce your up and down, all of those things are impactable through drills and stuff like that. But you can also impact how quickly you come off the ground. And that that would be other kinds of exercises, stuff like power work, like plyometrics and so on. But back to the old model of bouncing a basketball. Right? You take air out of the basketball, you can hammer it into ground as hard as you want. It's not going to come off great. So you have to make that basketball stiff. We were took talking earlier about basketball. Right? So there's strength work and there's drill work and there's power work and there's balance work and there's coordination work, all of those together form that neural component. For example, the neural component is how quickly can you contract your muscles around your knee, your hip and your ankle so you can come off the ground real quick. You know?

Carrie Tollefson: Hmm. Do you still do all those drills on like on a weekly basis, daily basis? So do you still like to do them?

Bobby McGee: I do. I teach a lot of drills, right? So I th I keep up doing my drills even at my age, you know, but I have a a a lot of coaches that use that and I now have other models that I use. I don't use myself as a model to do drill. You were a good model to do drills. I remember that.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. I well I think that's I mean, I f sometimes forget like how important that is by keeping my power up and, you know, my speed and all of that. I just go for runs sometimes now just to get a sweat on. But I think it's important and it I like how you're explaining it because, you know, it it actually It can work for all of us. It need we need to do this no matter if we're elites or we're just starting our run. And this actually is a good transition to the next question. You know, for most age group runners, what is a typical area with the biggest room of improvement? And I think that's kind of this right now. It's mechanics. I mean, w obviously I think most of us like to rev our engines and we like to go out and sweat and run. But I think for me it is those mechanics. Those are the things that you forget about or you think, I don't have time for it.

Bobby McGee: Yep, yep. So again, genetics determine your VO2 max capacity. You can you can improve your VO2 max by the right kind of training, right? But pretty much, you know, once you start hitting thirty, thirty-five, your ability to improve in those departments, especially if you've maximized those, is very, very limited. And the thing that holds most runners back is injury. And injury comes from overuse and overuse doing incorrect movements. So running mechanics became very effective when people realized if I don't get injured, I'm more consistent. If I'm more consistent, I run better. Now we know that running mechanics is a massive performance accelerator as well, right? So there's very simple, eloquent research studies like just do squats. You just do squats, you're gonna get you're gonna be a much more efficient runner. You're gonna be much more economical, and that's just squats. Never mind all the other refined stuff you could be doing, right? And the time that you spend doing squats does not improve your VO2 max at all. It just improves improves your mechanical efficiency, right? So it is where it's by far more important. Obviously, you have to be physiologically sound, you have to be cardiovascularly sound. But how many people just look at a marathon runner? Let's say you've got a 5k runner, he runs 25 minutes for 5K, and he's trying to go 330 for the marathon, right? But when he's running that three thirty marathon, his heart rate is so much lower than it is when he's running five K. So obviously his his cardiovascular capacity is not his limit in the marathon. His limit in the marathon is is his legs. And his mechanics and how he moves those legs and how he puts himself down and how he comes off the ground and how long his stride length is and how much he could reduce his vertical oscillation. Obviously, there's other things involved in efficiency like nutrition and hydration and all those kind of things. But mechanics of those two, of working on the cardiovascular or working on the mechanical efficiency, mechanical efficiency trumps it every time.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And then mechanical efficiency too, at the end of those long races. So many people forget that that's where it really kind of clicks is that okay, if I can hold my form through twenty-six point two or through those ultras, that's really where you see the benefit. It's at the end of the race. And so it's interesting, like I don't know if you saw the London Marathon and how they talked about the runner up there, which shh you you you I wanna say his name. I know his name. But I'm mixing it Ya Gelch Saowe won Ya Gelchech. I'm just blanking. Kaj yes, kgelchich. Something like that. Anyways, he had the speed suit on that supposedly holds his body in a way that is gonna keep him a little bit more mechanically sound. Did you he did you read about that?

Bobby McGee: yeah I'm thinking of Saway d as the winner and Yep. yep. Kajelja. Kajelja, yeah. Yeah. I did read a little bit about that, but I have seen research about that before, right? So even with the invention of some running shoes coming from mountain running, we know that a lot of eccentric micro-tearing happens when the muscle moves down the bone rapidly. Right? And so keeping that muscle up and against the bone is very, very useful, right? And so that's why we we need some shock absorption in the shoes and that's one of the reasons why we've done so well with the super shoes is because they cushion so well. Right? So they stop this micro they reduce this micro damage, right? And then the thing with with the clothing nowadays as well, from a from a an aerodynamics standpoint, clothing starts to count at about four forty eight pace. So if you're running for two hours at 448 pace or better, which these guys are, now you can be have less drag. You're starting to become a bit like a cyclist, right? The less drag you have, the better. And they figure with when when when Kipchogi ran sub-2, that the biggest factor was the re reduction of wind resistance by running in that echelon with those guys, that that was the biggest factor, you know. So

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, all of that. Yeah. It's it's fascinating. And I wanna get get on to our next question, but it's Yomif Kajelcha. That's his name. And I just couldn't get it out, and you were there. You had it, but it just was at the tip of my tongue. Yeah, the Ethiopian man who also broke two hours in the marathon with Saway. Just amazing. So go and check that out, listeners, if you want. Hear about the shoes that they were wearing, but the runner-up.

Bobby McGee: Kijalja. Yeah. Yeah. Ha ha ha. Yep. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: was wearing a speed suit as well. So just fascinating stuff.

Bobby McGee: Yep. And then also very, very different approach to nutrition. Very, very different approach to dealing with with acidosis, with dealing with hydrogen ions. There's there's a lot going on nowadays there.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah. So much science right now. There's a lot of science behind all of it. It's not just Yeah.

Bobby McGee: But the psychology also, which is going to be interesting going forward, they both isolated themselves, they were monk like in their approach. They didn't race often, they isolated themselves from even from their families to go on these extended deep blocks of training, you right? So it it's it's taking a lot nowadays.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Right? Mm. Wow. It is, it is. let's talk a little bit about how we improve our engine. Yeah, you know, is is run training the best way to improve our engine, or is there anything else we can do alongside our running to boost our capacity to run? We talked a little bit about the mechanics, but how when you think of improving our engine, what do you think of? What comes to mind?

Bobby McGee: Yep. So engine is about oxygen uptake and oxygen delivery, right? So there's a lot of things that you can do to improve your engine. The reason why even the best runners in the world only run about 13-14 hours a week is because their legs let them down. So anything else that can raise your heart rate, that you can do zone one, zone two type work with or even higher levels, same heart, same lungs, same oxygen delivery system, same legs, right? So any of those things like you know cycling and Those assault bikes, those kind of arms and leg things, those are brilliant because there's no impact, but they can you can get your heart rate up, you can hold your heart rate up for a very, very long period of time, you can do a lot of intensity without risking, say, your hips, your knees, your ankles, your your feet, stuff like that. So we've seen this with the triathletes over and over again. They come from a running background, they reduce their run training by forty, fifty, sixty percent. And then they end up being better runners. I even had a a v an Olympic Triathlete, he's been to two Olympics now, he's got two silver medals in the relay. he when he first come to came to triathlon, I recruited him from running, right? So he was a really good little runner, 13 and a half minutes for 5k. He was he was good, all right? And he did an hour of swimming and an hour of biking a day, right? And then he went up to Boston and he said his all-time PR for 3,000 meters. Alright, he ran like 750, right? And he came. And he said, you know what? I'm going back to running. I'm just gonna keep biking and swimming. And I thought, no, I've lost him. But eventually we got him back, you know. So yeah, and he went to the Olympics as as a triathlete twice. So and he probably has a chance of going again. But it was fantastic. So you know, there's so many things you can do that raise your heart rate, keep it up nice and steady that you can do intensity, it's aerobic without the limitations of your legs being smashed. But there's one thing people must feel

Carrie Tollefson: We got him back. I love that.

Bobby McGee: remember is that form fits function. Right? And so if you find your aerobic fitness going up and up and up and up because you're riding the bike, the bike is also mechanically hurting your run. Yeah. And so too with swimming, right? It it is different motor patterns, it's concentric versus eccentric. It should you know, so if you cycle nine hours a week and you only run five hours a week, you're gonna become a better cyclist with a very good cardiovascular system, but you might start getting injured in the run and you might s you know, you you lose your your your mechanical flow in the run. It can happen. So you've always got to remember that. So triathletes always fighting that battle.

Carrie Tollefson: I see, yeah. Okay. You get be careful. Mm-hmm.

Bobby McGee: But sometimes, you know, if you if you're an older runner or something like that and you just keep getting beaten up and you start cross-training and you find you're getting joy and meaning and satisfaction from riding a bike, well sometimes you might need to decide, look, it's time for me to just ride my bike for my health, or or to whatever. But for for running cross-training is absolutely essential. It's it's almost a cheat code for because how how many people can run 40 miles a week. Not many. You know, so and when you go, okay, but I need to run at least 60 if I want to run a marathon. Well, what is that 60 for? So, you know, when I work with marathon runners, I put a lot of walking, a lot of hiking, because that's what they need, that last third of the marathon. They need leg strength, they need to be able to stay on their legs to express the fitness they have. And they can't get that marathon hardness from running. They've got to break it up.

Carrie Tollefson: Right. I know. Hm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

Bobby McGee: They've got to run walk, they've got to hike, they've got to spend time on their legs. They need to build that marathon hardness a different way.

Carrie Tollefson: It's so interesting. I mean e The more that I study and I basically study runners. I don't I haven't really done any commentary for for triathletes, but you know, you look at Cole Hawker, the Olympic gold medalist in the fifteen hundred meter, he does a lot of biking now. More running, but he does add in biking every I think he does I think he cycles at least four times a week, if I'm not mistaken. Georgia Bell from, you know, she's overseas. She's an international athlete from Great Britain. She was bronze medalist in the 1500s. She too does a lot of cycling. I mean, you see more and more runners, you bringing that in. Maybe not doing its second run, but doing a second workout on the bike or in the pool. So it's it's very interesting.

Bobby McGee: Exactly. No, I mean you you will notice that with with a lot of them. You know, I when when I took Josiah to the Olympic Games in in Atlanta, people said, you know, he was the slowest of the three South African marathon runners that we took to those Games. And they trained together in Albuquerque in that last period of time and they did everything the same. And they said to me, Well, how did Josiah end up winning? And I said I don't know particularly, he was very strong mentally, very clear mentally, very single minded, but he did do one thing they didn't do physically. He went for these long three, four hour hikes on a Sunday in Al in the mountains of Albuquerque on his own while the other guys were in the house. And I wonder if in that heat of Atlanta that didn't you know push him over the edge as as Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Well, everyone else was maybe resting. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, sometimes it it's like, what did we do? We don't even know, but it worked.

Bobby McGee: Yeah, it worked. Exactly. There's so many things, right?

Carrie Tollefson: So many things. And I I think that we should have another episode where we really break down mechanics. I do find it fascinating and I think that you and I could talk a long time about it. But I just want to kind of touch a little bit more. Is our run form something that you think is fixable or changeable? I mean, there are times where take for instance, even a couple of the former Nike Oregon Project athletes that were with Alberto Salazar. he really worked on changing. forms of like Galen Rup. And I don't know if it really worked. Galen started to get some injuries and things like that. Not to say that it Alberto was wrong, but I don't know if it really worked. So what are you what are your thoughts on that?

Bobby McGee: It's a way more multifaceted answer, right? So you mentioned one of the things. If they are getting injured because of some form anomaly, right? And you then change that form anomaly, right? And obviously, the less skilled the runner is, the less developed they are, the less habituated they are, the easier it's gonna be to change that, right? So The old thing about form fits function, if you are healthy enough and you have pretty good natural mechanics, those mechanics will mostly improve if you don't break down. So if you very gradually build up your run and you're a horrendous looking runner, it's not like swimming, right? If you look horrendous, that doesn't mean to say you're inefficient, right? or you're uneconomical. And if you build it up slowly over time, you will adapt. To be strong and healthy and fast in that range that you have, right? But if there are certain things like running is a skill, right? And a lot of people think it's about lifting, and it's not, it's about putting down, it's about stiffening, it's about coming down. So learning how to run softer, springier, right? braking less, all of those things are teachable and lead to improved performance and reduced injury. So you don't change somebody's footprint, their their fingerprint of their running. I don't know if you ever played this game. We used to play this game where we'd look at the silhouettes of runners and we'd try to determine who the runner was. Right? And and it was so cool. Yeah, you can you you can definitely see who runs how. You can s you just watch Joni running in the dark, you know it's Joni. But those little out speed, the little high cadence.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Okay. fun. I've not played that but I wanna do it. You know, yeah.

Bobby McGee: It's so easy to see, right? So everybody has a footprint. But it's the details. You know, so if if they've got a a lot of hip drop and it's because of a coordination thing or a balance thing or an imbalance thing or or they are thinking a certain way that my job is to do this, right? So a lot of amateur runners reach, for example. They don't think of pushing, and then those that know to push Push backwards and not down. So there's all sorts of things when you look at an elite running, you say, form fits function. They learned to run fast, they learned how to move their bodies. And if you watch them over time, you will notice that when they were kids, they didn't run like they were running when they were elites. They were different. They had longer stride lengths, lower cadences, whatever, and as they got stronger and harder and ran more mileage, the running itself beat a good form into them. Right? But if you still look at elites today, their biggest limitation is injury. Right? And injury comes from mostly overuse. And the overuse means you're doing something a little bit incorrectly. And you can do that same thing in a very similar way. So the research is clear if you mess with somebody's form, if you change their arm action or you change you're gonna just injure them. It's not gonna work. But if you look at what's a limiter and you decide, can strength fix that? Can power fix that? Can range of motion fix that? Can improved balance fix that? Can, you know, th that's to me what working with somebody's format is about.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. That's yeah. Teachable, not changeable. I kinda like that, you know?

Bobby McGee: Yes, exactly, exactly. I always say that I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only I have been blessed with the ability over time, I can only reach into them, shake off that which is not good running and leave the good running that they have behind. So I play a a reductionist game. I remove what doesn't work for them to leave behind what does work for them. And so you're not giving them anything, you're just cleaning them up.

Carrie Tollefson: exactly. And ac it's so funny, I'll say to my husband every now and then, you know, let me know when I start to look like a different runner. Cause then I know I am doing I need to focus on some sort of strength or whatever. Cause you know, you see a lot of these elite athletes that love to run, you know, and hopefully we'll be able to run for a lifetime. But there are some that that struggle with certain things as they get older. And I still feel like I look like I did when I was running as an elite. I don't think I probably do, but I always tell my husband, I'm like, tell me if one of my knees is turning in, or tell me if my foot is starting to turn out, or, you know, if I just don't look like my because then something will go wrong and then I will end up changing and I don't want to change. I want to stay the same.

Bobby McGee: Yeah. All of sport, especially when we talk about elites, all of sport is extreme. And we shouldn't aspire as average runners or as age groupers or as amateurs, we shouldn't aspire to do what the elites do. We should aspire to be part of that family as runners. But it should be for a lifetime, it should be for health, it should be you know, we sure we can compete and so on, but trying endlessly to run a hundred miles a week when you've never got higher than sixty and breaking down is an exercise in futility. I was at the hospital the other day, a top journalist that used to support all of us throughout the years, Mike Sandrock ended up in hospital the other day and and I went to visit him and there were so many elites there, right? But these were elites that were in their 60s and in their 70s, right? And watching those Olympic champions, world record holders, walk down the passage in the hospital was a little disturbing. They were struggling, you know. And so too much of anything is not a good thing. and and they themselves say, I ride my bike now, I love it. If only I'd known I would have ridden my bike more, I would have done this, I would have done that. It's it's just an evolution. It's

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Sure. Mm. It really is. I try real hard to make sure to get out on the playground and like last night we played wiffle ball and I was sprinting as fast as I could when I was running those bases. You know, just doing things like being a kid. Yeah, using my arms, driving my knees, doing all those things 'cause I don't wanna I don't wanna forget, but I also, like I said at the top of the show, I'm not one to go and do drills anymore. And that's a simple way, it's a fun way. And I also I can teach my young kids how to, you know, get a little bit more powerful maybe in their stride. we've talked a lot about yeah.

Bobby McGee: And also tap also tap into that very important word rhythm, which is the underpinning of everything in life and in running. Don't fight your rhythms. You know, I work with athletes that have cadences that are elite athletes that have cadences of like one seventy-five, one eighty, right? And then I work with other elites that have cadences of two twenty. You know, it's they built differently. They have different ranges of motion. They have different ways of approaching it. And they both world class, you know? Both sides of the coin. So but the rhythm part, the drills part, I can do drills, but I can't run. You know? And which means that there's something healthy about that. There's something dance-like about that. There's something earthy and organic about that. You know, it's just

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yeah, it's not one size fits all. That's right. Hmm. Totally. Yeah, yeah.

Bobby McGee: It's what we need to do. We need to learn to move our bodies. Not not because it makes us more effective, it makes us happier. Makes us joyful. It makes us be both a physical and a mental being, you know?

Carrie Tollefson: Yes, I agree. You're so tr it's so true. That's why I I mean that's really why I run now. I'd I'd love to get out and ha it's like my happy hour. I go and have, you know, four miles, three miles with some friends and chat real quick and then I get back to work and all the craziness of life and it's been a real blessing to have in my life. Yes.

Bobby McGee: Exactly. And that little buzz you have when you sit down in front of the computer, you're just like your whole body's singing, you know. Yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: I know I did something hard today. we've talked about mechanics, we've talked about the engine, but we haven't talked a lot about the mental game. And I know that you are very big into training your brain. So, you know, how much does the mental game affect a runner and their performance?

Bobby McGee: Yeah. When I first started working for the US Olympic Committee, I they had a manual, right? I've got it on the shelf behind me. You know, about what they realized firstly that they can't put a sports psychologist with a Olympic athlete, right? The the interface with the athlete has to be the coach, right? And there was a st a statement that they made, right, that that You can have a perfect mental game, but if you're not physically capable, you're not gonna win the gold medal. But the flip side is also true. You can have the perfect body, the perfect speed, the perfect fitness. If you don't have the mental game, it's not gonna happen for you. It's definitely not gonna happen for you. So I consider the sports psychology, the psycho-emotional component as the key. To access of the physical ability. Whatever physical ability you have, access to it is determined by your mental game. And I think the other part to add to that, that's why the first in mem is mind. And I think the other part of that, too, is, and it's the part that I'm working with a sports psychologist now. And I'm so excited about this project. Is this realization that I had that the highest level of performing on a mental side is to be tough, to be mentally tough, to be robust, to be resilient. And it's not. The highest level is to be anti-fragile. And so We've come up with a word because anti-fragile means a avoid being fragile, which means the focus is on fragility, which is not a good idea. The word we came up with is thrivent. So a Thrive mentality, T H R Y V E N T, Thrive Ment. And so we're creating this course where we're teaching people to find what their limiters are. And learning to use those limiters as fuel. And it's not my idea, right? This is a concept that a a guy came up with. his name is Naseem Taleb, and he wrote this book on anti-fragility. And it's this ability that we become stronger and more capable by doing hard things. We actually can get to a point where hard things are the thing we need to be our best. It is the fuel. So the harder it gets out there in the marathon, the harder it gets out there in the 10K, the higher the intensity gets, the more meaning you find, the more joy you find, the more satisfaction you find in your ability to do hard things. And now brain research is proving that that's where we need to go. So going out every day and realizing the privilege, being so incredibly grateful to be able to do what you're doing, by seeking the joy, by stopping at the top of the climb and looking at the sunset or looking at the sunrise, or by seeing somebody walking along with a beautiful dog or By really appreciating it when you greet somebody and they greet you back just a little bit more than is necessary, right? They literally engage for that brief second. That's thrivement. You know, being able to thrive in in that environment. Not I'm tough, I go out there, I deal with the weather and so on. When you go out in the rain and you th used to hate running in the rain and now you love running in the rain. That's that's that's the the whole process. And it and it takes time because it's quite easy to learn in trends. training and then when you're in competition and the chips are down, it all goes out the window and the old person comes back, the defensive, the pr you know, the the vulnerable, you know, that kind of thing. So so that would be a message on on that side. And we can have a probably a whole podcast just on that.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. we're going to, because I am totally inspired by this right now. I mean, I always look at the glasses half full in life, or at least I try, right? And I think I do even as a parent and then in maybe as a coach, like, come on, you can tough out those tough moments. Like you you know, you can embrace the pain. And there's a little negativity there, and I don't always love that. But I think it's more just the wording, like you say, can even just give an athlete the chance to breathe through some of these moments that are hard. And that's why we're good athletes is because we can handle pain. We can handle the scariness of pushing to a whole new level, right? But I like your approach of it's like a it's not a softer approach. It's just like a more positive feeling.

Bobby McGee: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's not even positive, it's just real. It's about being present, right? I said to to to my colleague in this ThriveMint project that we're going on, Cory Cory Reich, I said to him, I don't like and will not use when I talk the word pain. In a voluntary activity. If you go out there and you push hard and you experience intensity, you do not have the right to call it pain. Because it's something that you are going out that you are wanting, that you are seeking. So it's effort, it's intensity, it's something else, but it's not pain.

Carrie Tollefson: Okay. Sure. Intensity, yep. this is so good. We are definitely doing this for a whole new podcast. And I'm gonna have my daughter come on and ask you all the questions because, you know, she's learning all of this. we have one more question. We have the cooldown question, and it's a good one. It's a question from our audience. And Jason from Delaware wrote in and he said, I have a slight leg discrepancy where my left leg is a bit longer than my right. I've noticed. I I d I never notice it rather until my bike is fitted. Yeah. And so he'll tweak his bike, obviously, and things like that. He said it made him wonder, is there anything I need to do in my run form to make me more efficient with the slight difference?

Bobby McGee: I can say, yeah. Yes. So firstly, Jason, thank you for a brilliant question. You're my first friend from Delaware. I don't know anybody from Delaware that I can think of. so the answer is yes and no and depends. So in the medical community, yeah in the medical community, in the orthopedic community, they often don't consider a leg length discrepancy of less than ten millimeters, of less than a centimeter, as Causative of anything. But that's not for runners, right? So in running, it can mean something. A leg length discrepancy can lead to issues. Now the Jason gives it away by saying, I've never noticed it. So if you haven't noticed it, right, it means it's not hurting you, it's not impacting you. So now if you were sort of a device on each foot with an accelerometer or something something like a stride device or the duo setup where you have one on each foot you might find a little bit of power loss in the one side or you might find a little bit of greater impact on the longer side right or your knee might be collapsing on that side right so you've got to decide it also depends where it comes from Is it in your femur or is it in your tibia? Right? And that impacts how the bike fit works as well, right? Because if it's in your tibia, it's pointless putting a little lift on your bicycle pedal, right? But it's it's a good idea if you have a power imbalance, the power you're creating with your left pedal versus your right pedal, to put in a little lift on the pedal to make up for that tibial difference, right? It also depends usually, and I sort of started with this, whether your left Leg length discrepancy is functional, in other words, because your pelvis is a bit misaligned, or because your lower spine is a little bit misaligned. Any one of those things can lead to a deficiency, all right, that you can adjust that a PT or a chiropractor can address. Or is it structural? You had an X-ray, somebody measured it, you really have a tibia that's X amount longer than your other tibia. Shorter or whatever the case might be, right? But the big thing is, does it hurt you? And then the next best thing is it impairing your performance? Because if you've had a lifelong structural leg length discrepancy with no problems, with no problems at all, if you then go and address it, you will get problems. Because your body's not used to it being balanced. So it's a really, really good question. It also depends on the type of foot strike you have. And if there are issues, what is the issue? So sometimes, you know, if you have a if you're a heel striker you can just put in a little heel lift if you're getting problems with that. But if you're a mid foot striker, now you need to get slightly bigger shoes and you need to put a whole foot lift in that shoe. So there's there's a thousand things that happen. But mostly Jason, it sounds like you don't have problems. Don't mess with it.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. And definitely probably talk to a professional about it as well. I mean, there's things that we could try to tweak on our own, but things grow awry real easy when we start to do that. So yeah, yeah.

Bobby McGee: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Precisely, precisely. The tol tolerance levels if we do something consistently are very small. Right? You could be running the same route every day for years and years and years. You go visit a friend and you run in an area where there's more rainfall, there's more camber on the road, you go for your usual hour run and then you don't know why your ankle hurts or why your knee hurts. It's so subtle, yeah.

Carrie Tollefson: Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. This has been really fun and we will have you back for sure.